mdspace
Established
I used to be a SLR user when I was 13, now in my 30’s and I started to get in to the rangefinder world for the first time with an olive Bessa R2, since then, I have been motivated every moment that I spent with it and I will continue doing it for the rest of my live, because I love the photography, the film and the magical rangefinder world.
Nevertheless, I feel ready now to also try the digital photography, but enjoying a rangefinder camera, the options are few… Leica M8 or Epson R-D1s.
It is funny that now when the Epson R-D1s is clearly discontinued, this camera begin to have popularity, because we have to admit that is a very good quality camera with few bad comments, a unique old school type digital rangefinder experience, a very flexible and easy to use.
The principal problem in my point of view is that Epson tried to make a collectable camera, when Epson doesn’t have a legendary name in the photography industry, they wrongly forgot that at first, the photographers (the potential buyers) consider that the principal purpose of a camera is for use, more than a fetish object. I understand that the rangefinder vs. SLR market is different, and the rangefinder users are numerically less or maybe we have to call a special market, but it doesn’t means that the rangefinders users are not focusing in the principal goal of the photography itself. Epson have a good chance to do something in the photography world, in the rangefinder world, but sincerely, they are loosing a very good chance in the photography industry if they quit now.
The Leica M8, a very sad beginning. I think that many of the M8 owners feel a little bit disappointed about their luxury purchase. In many articles in the internet, many people consider a better purchase the Epson R-D1s than the M8, talking about the basic digital color image result and the utility. I’m sure that Leica will appear with a renewed M8 soon, but my question is if any rangefinder user can afford a M8, or how easy is walking around the streets of the world like an amateur with a $5000 camera (just talking about the body).
I know that the SLR is cheaper because the market is bigger. Nikon, Canon and many Japanese companies have made the photography world more affordable, and that is why these companies are so successful, talking about the digital world, Japan still been the winner. In my opinion, in our present, the principal Japanese company that has the most important hit in the rangefinder world is Cosina, they have made possible to enjoy the rangefinder photography for many of us in a more useful ways.
Many people have discussed the possibility of a digital Zeiss-Ikon, or a new Epson, but sincerely, I consider that is the time of the king… COSINA with a Digital Bessa R5, with their experience in the rangefinder world, with all the years working hard in revive the rangefinder world, with all the relations that they have in the photography, digital electronics and optics world (Nikon, Epson-Seiko, Sony, Carl Zeiss…), now is the Cosina time, they have a big chance to bring to the market a good, successful and unique digital rangefinder camera that everybody are waiting.
Nevertheless, I feel ready now to also try the digital photography, but enjoying a rangefinder camera, the options are few… Leica M8 or Epson R-D1s.
It is funny that now when the Epson R-D1s is clearly discontinued, this camera begin to have popularity, because we have to admit that is a very good quality camera with few bad comments, a unique old school type digital rangefinder experience, a very flexible and easy to use.
The principal problem in my point of view is that Epson tried to make a collectable camera, when Epson doesn’t have a legendary name in the photography industry, they wrongly forgot that at first, the photographers (the potential buyers) consider that the principal purpose of a camera is for use, more than a fetish object. I understand that the rangefinder vs. SLR market is different, and the rangefinder users are numerically less or maybe we have to call a special market, but it doesn’t means that the rangefinders users are not focusing in the principal goal of the photography itself. Epson have a good chance to do something in the photography world, in the rangefinder world, but sincerely, they are loosing a very good chance in the photography industry if they quit now.
The Leica M8, a very sad beginning. I think that many of the M8 owners feel a little bit disappointed about their luxury purchase. In many articles in the internet, many people consider a better purchase the Epson R-D1s than the M8, talking about the basic digital color image result and the utility. I’m sure that Leica will appear with a renewed M8 soon, but my question is if any rangefinder user can afford a M8, or how easy is walking around the streets of the world like an amateur with a $5000 camera (just talking about the body).
I know that the SLR is cheaper because the market is bigger. Nikon, Canon and many Japanese companies have made the photography world more affordable, and that is why these companies are so successful, talking about the digital world, Japan still been the winner. In my opinion, in our present, the principal Japanese company that has the most important hit in the rangefinder world is Cosina, they have made possible to enjoy the rangefinder photography for many of us in a more useful ways.
Many people have discussed the possibility of a digital Zeiss-Ikon, or a new Epson, but sincerely, I consider that is the time of the king… COSINA with a Digital Bessa R5, with their experience in the rangefinder world, with all the years working hard in revive the rangefinder world, with all the relations that they have in the photography, digital electronics and optics world (Nikon, Epson-Seiko, Sony, Carl Zeiss…), now is the Cosina time, they have a big chance to bring to the market a good, successful and unique digital rangefinder camera that everybody are waiting.
Who will not buy a digital Bessa R5?
Who will not try a digital Bessa R5?
Who hasn’t the same dream?
Maybe I am only a dreamer...
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W
wlewisiii
Guest
It will never happen. Kobayashi-san does not like digital cameras and, far more importantly, the expensive & nasty short upgrade cycle they require. Hence there will never be a digital Bessa as long as he controls the rights to the Voightlander name. Or for that matter, is the director of Cosina. While I can sympathize with your desire (I was fantasing about a FD mount digi-cam from Cosina earlier today 
) all the sympathies in the world can not change reality & the reality is that Cosina will not make digital cameras.
Sorry,
William
) all the sympathies in the world can not change reality & the reality is that Cosina will not make digital cameras. Sorry,
William
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mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
I think it's all about price-quality. Cosina's method for its lenses is to make the best solution, then replace parts with cheaper options, without changing the quality to much. They stop when they reach a good price target. (quote from memory from something I read on the net). For they cameras, the seem to try to use as many standard parts as possible.
Neither method would work for a Digital Rangefinder. Since the 'digital' part has to be sourced from somewhere, it's not possible to replace parts in it with cheaper ones, or exchange it for a cheaper module, without loss of quality. And since Cosina doesn't make a digital camera, they can't reuse parts from it.
If they would make one, and sell it at about Euro 1500 - 1600, I'ld have a lot of difficulty not to buy one. If more expensive, it would be less difficult .
Neither method would work for a Digital Rangefinder. Since the 'digital' part has to be sourced from somewhere, it's not possible to replace parts in it with cheaper ones, or exchange it for a cheaper module, without loss of quality. And since Cosina doesn't make a digital camera, they can't reuse parts from it.
If they would make one, and sell it at about Euro 1500 - 1600, I'ld have a lot of difficulty not to buy one. If more expensive, it would be less difficult
.mdspace
Established
Interesting points, I have heard about that Mr. Kobayashi doesn’t like the digital cameras, maybe this is an important point for why the R-D1 was appear with the Epson name, but we have to be optimists, in basic the R-D1 use the Bessas body, and not only that, all the mechanical parts were developed by Cosina, and many parts are standards of the Bessas, inclusively many accessories for the Bessas and Nikons are compatibles, so standard is not bad at all. Principally for the fact of the R-D1 I can’t think that Cosina and Mr. Kobayashi are completely negatives respect the digital photography.
I can’t consider the R-D1 a unsuccessful camera, when it appeared for the first time, this camera never used to have hard bad comments, if we compare with the M8 comments and solutions for the problems. Another fact is that we can’t find it in any stores out side Japan comparing with another cameras that have more than 5 years without living from the stores without considering the price, another interesting fact is that in Japan, when Epson announced the end of the R-D1s in step of find that the price felt down we just saw that the price went up.
A very clear fact if Cosina develop a digital camera will take the experience from the R-D1 and they will work with another companies for the electronics and digital stuffs, I still thinking that they can bring us a very good digital rangefinder camera.
I can’t consider the R-D1 a unsuccessful camera, when it appeared for the first time, this camera never used to have hard bad comments, if we compare with the M8 comments and solutions for the problems. Another fact is that we can’t find it in any stores out side Japan comparing with another cameras that have more than 5 years without living from the stores without considering the price, another interesting fact is that in Japan, when Epson announced the end of the R-D1s in step of find that the price felt down we just saw that the price went up.
A very clear fact if Cosina develop a digital camera will take the experience from the R-D1 and they will work with another companies for the electronics and digital stuffs, I still thinking that they can bring us a very good digital rangefinder camera.
Krosya
Konicaze
Maybe they will make one when there is no more film is being made. I hope those times will never come, but......never know.
Calvin
Established
Interesting topic proposed by mdspace. Personally, I am using SLR and Rangefinder and not ready yet for the digital. Nonetheless, given the sound reputation of Cosina, having a Bessa R5 won't be a bad thing after all.
pizzahut88
Well-known
Warning disaster ahead.
Warning disaster ahead.
If Cosina makes a digital Rf, it would kill off its own film Bessa RF.
That happened to Nikon. Film SLRs are now almost history.
On the other hand, I would love to buy a digital RF,
perhaps the best solution would be a digital module, like Leica's digital SLR module.
It can be done !
Warning disaster ahead.
If Cosina makes a digital Rf, it would kill off its own film Bessa RF.
That happened to Nikon. Film SLRs are now almost history.
On the other hand, I would love to buy a digital RF,
perhaps the best solution would be a digital module, like Leica's digital SLR module.
It can be done !
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
Pizzahut, it probably will be done. I suspect there is an immense market for a digital module which can go into the millions of film cameras in existence. [edit - rider] The SLR market is of course larger than the RF one.
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sienarot
Well-known
Unless they came out with an affordable body with a full frame sensor that had the dynamic range of film, I wouldn't even blink at it if they did come out with a digital RF, which they won't -- atleast in the foreseeable future.
As it's already been mentioned, the chance of a digital RF by Cosina is highly unlikely as it's not really in their (read: Mr. Kobayashi's) interest.
As it's already been mentioned, the chance of a digital RF by Cosina is highly unlikely as it's not really in their (read: Mr. Kobayashi's) interest.
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
Looking at Cosina's history, they often minimize risk through re-using parts developed in concert with their business partners. The same may happen with the a digital rangefinder.
Consider the Bessa L, an LTM camera without even a rangefinder, re-using a body from their SLR endeavors and with its success, comes the R, then the T, and etc. Nothing really new in any of them but good picture takers at a good price.
Digital photography is maturing. The visible difference between 8 megapixels and 10 megapixels isn't practically significant in that each are certainy capable of very nice 8x10 prints which for handheld photography is pretty decent. Obtaining "last generation" sensors ought not to be significant problem.
And consider how digital photography is shaping up for the pro and the serious enthusiast. Simply put, if it ain't RAW, it ain't worthy. A camera only supporting a RAW format might be considered an innovation and certainly save the manufacturer from dealing with a bunch of on board image processing. Okay, maybe some white balancing for the chimping screen but I'm thinking little else would be necessary.
But then there's the chimping screen itself, one can even argue against that in the rangefinder world. I understand Mr. Winogrand didn't even look at his images for a year after capture. Afterall, didn't the photographer see the image in the viewfinder before pressing the shutter release? That's why there's a viewfinder instead of a gun sight.
So what would this Bessa have? I'm thinking an R type camera, a battery on one side, a card slot on the other, with a simple LCD on the back counting frames, the current ISO and battery life, sporting an 8 meg APS-C sized sensor under an M-mount.
Everything about it would be "wrong" according to conventional thinking but then manual focus, rangefinder cameras are not about conventional thinking in any case.
Consider the Bessa L, an LTM camera without even a rangefinder, re-using a body from their SLR endeavors and with its success, comes the R, then the T, and etc. Nothing really new in any of them but good picture takers at a good price.
Digital photography is maturing. The visible difference between 8 megapixels and 10 megapixels isn't practically significant in that each are certainy capable of very nice 8x10 prints which for handheld photography is pretty decent. Obtaining "last generation" sensors ought not to be significant problem.
And consider how digital photography is shaping up for the pro and the serious enthusiast. Simply put, if it ain't RAW, it ain't worthy. A camera only supporting a RAW format might be considered an innovation and certainly save the manufacturer from dealing with a bunch of on board image processing. Okay, maybe some white balancing for the chimping screen but I'm thinking little else would be necessary.
But then there's the chimping screen itself, one can even argue against that in the rangefinder world. I understand Mr. Winogrand didn't even look at his images for a year after capture. Afterall, didn't the photographer see the image in the viewfinder before pressing the shutter release? That's why there's a viewfinder instead of a gun sight.
So what would this Bessa have? I'm thinking an R type camera, a battery on one side, a card slot on the other, with a simple LCD on the back counting frames, the current ISO and battery life, sporting an 8 meg APS-C sized sensor under an M-mount.
Everything about it would be "wrong" according to conventional thinking but then manual focus, rangefinder cameras are not about conventional thinking in any case.
pizzahut88
Well-known
As the world consist of average consumers . . .
As the world consist of average consumers . . .
So thus the SLR market is larger.
Those cheapo auto focus plasticky SLR kits almost rule the planet.
At the end of game, a few years down the road, several upgrades later,
average consumers actually out-spend RF users
(save & except hardcore Leica users I suppose).
As the world consist of average consumers . . .
payasam said:
So thus the SLR market is larger.
Those cheapo auto focus plasticky SLR kits almost rule the planet.
At the end of game, a few years down the road, several upgrades later,
average consumers actually out-spend RF users
(save & except hardcore Leica users I suppose).
mdspace
Established
A digital module is a wonderful idea, if we consider that the backdoor of all Bessas are the same, nevertheless, I think this option will be very expensive, to buy a camera that already has the digital back integrated is cheaper, easy to develop and produce.
The thing that happened to Nikon is interesting, after they made the Nikon’s king successor “F-3”, the AF fashion began to invade the hearts of many photographers, because the people considering the AF and advantage, but if I ask to every rangefinder camera user about it, we know the answer, “the connection between the photographer and the rangefinder is essential”. Sadly, the AF fact introduce the people to the automatic world (I am not complaining), and that makes extremely electronic, automatic and plastified F-4, F-5 (very poor) and the last one F6 (a joke). The truth is that the F series concept has been to put all the technology available in a camera. In my opinion, the FM series was the last and the most respectful, because never leaved their essence (just compare the FM of 1976 and FM3 of 2006).
The reality is that one more time the people began to be illuminated with a new thing, the digital cameras and since then, Nikon has been concentrated in the battle of the digital SLR cameras, because their market is just that, the mass consumers, nevertheless, Nikon still has a heart for the classic and the essence, 2003 the S3 and 2005 the SP.
The case of Cosina is completely different. They arrived in the rangefinder photography with an all rangefinder mechanical camera when in the stores the market was full of electronics AF SLR cameras, they have been continue producing these miracles even when all the SLR world turn in to digital. Until today, they have given to us many good things, they revived in such way the rangefinder photography for people like many of us, good and affordable M and L-mount lenses and cameras, Nikon S and Zeiss Contax generic cameras and lenses, an many many things to promote the rangefinder world.
The rangefinder photography itself, has a lot of things that avoid such parts of the pass of the time for sure, the rangefinder users prefer the manual focus, the mechanical feeling, the metallic surface, the taste of our creativity catch in the viewfinder, to touch with our eye the colors and the moment that we want. If the digital photography will kill the film photography, I think that this is impossible. Do you think that the canvas, the acrylic paint will disappear just because we have computers, softwares and good prints?
The digital photography is just an option that we can also enjoy, is not the satanic fact of the rangefinder photography.
Do you think that Leica will stop producing film cameras after the M8?
If you have a digital Bessa, you will stop using your film Bessa L, T, R, R2, R3 or R4?
I always will use my film rangefinder camera and I wish Cosina continue producing film cameras until I die, but I also wonder a digital Cosina… a digital Bessa R5 can sound nice.
“The rangefinder is not a fashion is a life…”
The thing that happened to Nikon is interesting, after they made the Nikon’s king successor “F-3”, the AF fashion began to invade the hearts of many photographers, because the people considering the AF and advantage, but if I ask to every rangefinder camera user about it, we know the answer, “the connection between the photographer and the rangefinder is essential”. Sadly, the AF fact introduce the people to the automatic world (I am not complaining), and that makes extremely electronic, automatic and plastified F-4, F-5 (very poor) and the last one F6 (a joke). The truth is that the F series concept has been to put all the technology available in a camera. In my opinion, the FM series was the last and the most respectful, because never leaved their essence (just compare the FM of 1976 and FM3 of 2006).
The reality is that one more time the people began to be illuminated with a new thing, the digital cameras and since then, Nikon has been concentrated in the battle of the digital SLR cameras, because their market is just that, the mass consumers, nevertheless, Nikon still has a heart for the classic and the essence, 2003 the S3 and 2005 the SP.
The case of Cosina is completely different. They arrived in the rangefinder photography with an all rangefinder mechanical camera when in the stores the market was full of electronics AF SLR cameras, they have been continue producing these miracles even when all the SLR world turn in to digital. Until today, they have given to us many good things, they revived in such way the rangefinder photography for people like many of us, good and affordable M and L-mount lenses and cameras, Nikon S and Zeiss Contax generic cameras and lenses, an many many things to promote the rangefinder world.
The rangefinder photography itself, has a lot of things that avoid such parts of the pass of the time for sure, the rangefinder users prefer the manual focus, the mechanical feeling, the metallic surface, the taste of our creativity catch in the viewfinder, to touch with our eye the colors and the moment that we want. If the digital photography will kill the film photography, I think that this is impossible. Do you think that the canvas, the acrylic paint will disappear just because we have computers, softwares and good prints?
The digital photography is just an option that we can also enjoy, is not the satanic fact of the rangefinder photography.
Do you think that Leica will stop producing film cameras after the M8?
If you have a digital Bessa, you will stop using your film Bessa L, T, R, R2, R3 or R4?
I always will use my film rangefinder camera and I wish Cosina continue producing film cameras until I die, but I also wonder a digital Cosina… a digital Bessa R5 can sound nice.
“The rangefinder is not a fashion is a life…”
mascarenhas
Established
Going from where Jason stopped: body just like the R2A/R3A, with the same mag and APS-C sensor (so 35 framelines for the 25/4P, 50 for the 35/40, 75 for 50 in R2D, R3D just like RD-1), RAW only, NO LCD, manual shutter. A simple LCD like Leica's counting how many frames are left and battery life. Heck, I would even buy with a mecanical frame counter (you know the capacity of your card and how much space a RAW takes, do the math). RAW only, no LCD means no need for a fancy image processor in camera. I'm thinking a stripped-down RD-1 with 0.72x mag instead of life-size. Price it just under $1000 and I bet everyone here would get one.
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
Hmm, maybe no LCD at all, not even the Leica type frame counter. Maybe two LED's, one for the low battery indicator and another for low card memory indicator. Or maybe a series of LEDs modeled on what the Bessa meter displays exposure, but instead 1/4 down, 1/2 down, 3/4 down, etc.
How about a lever like a DOF preview that changes the function of the meter display to either battery strength or remaining card memory.
And then leave ISO to the ring around the shutter speed dial. It's already a switch for the meter anyway.
I know it's only a dream but it's a vivid dream.
How about a lever like a DOF preview that changes the function of the meter display to either battery strength or remaining card memory.
And then leave ISO to the ring around the shutter speed dial. It's already a switch for the meter anyway.
I know it's only a dream but it's a vivid dream.
Jason Sprenger
Well-known
Is it? Dammit!
Thank God, you stopped me.
Lord knows how long this could have gone on.
Thank God, you stopped me.
Lord knows how long this could have gone on.
Creagerj
Incidental Artist
Ya know, I never really saw the point in having an LCD on a Digital SLR ( I guess for some things it makes sense). I get the idea that if you take a bad picture you know right away, but why sit there and waste your time editing on your camera when you could be taking more pictures. In theory you have unlimited room and none of the overhead associated with film. Hell, once the moments gone the moments gone, if you missed the shot you missed and you'll know sooner or later so why worry then when you could devote your valuable time to making sure you at least get one shot that does count.
What I want to see is a hybrid. It can be done, the pressure plate could even be used to house a full frame CCD or CMOS. It wouldn't to dissimilar from the Kodak/Nikon DCS 100. The difference now is that circuitry and memory take up significantly less room.
What I want to see is a hybrid. It can be done, the pressure plate could even be used to house a full frame CCD or CMOS. It wouldn't to dissimilar from the Kodak/Nikon DCS 100. The difference now is that circuitry and memory take up significantly less room.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
payasam said:
I doubt that this will ever happen. Most people would rather buy a new camera that's convenient to use, rather than buy an expensive, inconvenient add-on so they can keep using their old camera. In fact, I predict that within a couple of years, the vast majority of people will never use a camera at all. All their picture-taking needs will be met by their cell phones. The idea of "taking pictures" will become completely disconnected from the idea of a "camera." The idea of using a camera to take pictures will be completely foreign to most people -- it will sound as odd to them as the idea of using a telegraph to send messages. "Why would I do that when I've got a phone?"
Sure, "serious photographers" will continue to use cameras for their picture-taking. But as for those millions of film cameras... well, most people (we on RFF are exceptions) don't have them any more. They've moved on.
This past weekend the biggest camera store in town here had its annual "tent sale." I never miss this, partly because it's when they bring out all the wild, weird, used equipment that's normally too obscure to display in the used-camera case, and put it out on tables to sell. (How obscure? A couple of years ago I had to pass on a clean, working Bell & Howell Foton with two lenses - couldn't afford it.)
This year, though, was kind of sad. The tables were crammed with solid, usable SLR gear that most photographers would have considered lust-worthy just a few years ago, and none of them were moving. I played with a near-mint, fully-functional Nikon F with working FTn prism and 50mm f/1.4 Nikkor lens -- price, $99 complete. It sat all weekend with no takers. Or how about a flawless original Canon F-1 equipped with a complete F-1 Motor Drive and grip, and servo AE prism finder, plus an 85mm f/1.2 Canon FD SSC Aspherical lens -- price for the whole package, $549. I would have thought someone would have bought it just for the lens... but no, it too still sat unsold by the end of the weekend.
The ship has sailed for the photo equipment trade in general. I'm not saying that we need to move on, or that we should... but the idea that millions of people are waiting for the chance to use a digital adapter on their old film cameras (even if such a thing could be engineered conveniently) is just flawed, in my opinion.
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mdspace
Established
Cosina-Voigtlander Digital Bessa R5
Cosina-Voigtlander Digital Bessa R5
“Which digital rangefinder camera you are waiting?”
Like many people here I am waiting for a new digital rangefinder camera.
- Considering that I want a camera for taking a lot of pictures and not a fetish item.
- Considering that I want to take it with me all the time, has to be a tank and easy to repair.
- Considering that I want to spend my money in good lenses and accessories.
- Considering that I want simplicity and ergonomics.
- Considering the background and the future develop of the camera.
My dream and my vote is for the Digital Bessa R5
Cosina-Voigtlander Digital Bessa R5
“Which digital rangefinder camera you are waiting?”
Like many people here I am waiting for a new digital rangefinder camera.
- Considering that I want a camera for taking a lot of pictures and not a fetish item.
- Considering that I want to take it with me all the time, has to be a tank and easy to repair.
- Considering that I want to spend my money in good lenses and accessories.
- Considering that I want simplicity and ergonomics.
- Considering the background and the future develop of the camera.
My dream and my vote is for the Digital Bessa R5
gavinlg
Veteran
DZI - zeiss do things right.
pvdhaar
Peter
For me, the greatest bottleneck isn't whether it's an Epson, a Bessa or a whatever. It's the price that is the problem. I just can't justify spending over $1000 for a digital RF..
Now, if only this Zenit that we discussed a month ago would materialise at a decent price: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42642
Now, if only this Zenit that we discussed a month ago would materialise at a decent price: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42642