Who has both R and M system?

[lin8810]

Hey guys,
I am new to this forum and I apologize in advance for poorly grammar and verbal tense because English is not my native language....:bang:

I own a Leica R9 and 2 lenses: 28-90mm/f2.8-4.5 ASPH and APO 70-180/f2.8. They both have ROM contact and work very well. However, I think I need a more faster lense for shooting my baby pictures inside the house.

If I buy a f1.4 R-lense, such as 50mm/f1.4 ASPH or 35mm/f1.4 ASPH, why don't I join M family? 😀 This sound starts to appear in my mind~~

If I am going to join M family, I definitely will just buy one lense. Currently my target is to get a used MP and used Noctilux. I guess I can enjoy myself in photography by owning this combination....

I just want to know that does there anyone have both systems? Any comments to my plan or it's just a waste of money?

Regarding MP and Noctilux, will that be a good idea if I buy a 1.25x to help focusing on 0.72 body? And, if I totally rely on MP's metering, will that be accurate enough?

Thanks at all!! Have a good day!!

 

[Tom A]

I do use both R and M systems. My R system is vintage Leicaflex and SL' and mainly macro lenses.
For a modern M system, particularly for "baby" shots in your case, I would forego the Noctilux (it is an old design and though F1 sounds sexy, it is not that practical). I would go for a Summilux Asph. 50f1.4. This is probably the best 50mm lens ever made by anyone! It also has the advantage of being able to focus close without shifting the focus plane. The Noctilux is only adequate at the 07-1m range ( even the older Summicron is better).
When looking for the MP also look out for a 0,85 rather than the 0.72 if 50 mm is going to be your prime focal-length. The 35 is usable on the 0.85, but the frame lines are at the outer edges of what you can see.
Remember too that using a range finder is different from a SLR. Framing is less precise, including variations of this at close focus and infinity. Of course it is not as noisy as your R camera (no mirror flap) and you can actually shoot handheld at 1/8 or 1/15 of a second without problems.

 

[thomasw_]

My guess is that few people here use the Leica R system, as this is RFF 🙂 ; rather most who use a leica or leica-derivative RFF system will likely use some sort of M/LTM combination.

I would use 1.25x magnifier or 1,35x magnifier with a .72 or .58 VF to help with focussing the noctilux.

Welcome!!!

 

[peter_n]

I would agree with Tom A. Get a used 0.85x MP and a 50/1.4 ASPH. Also the Noctilux closest focus is 1M and the Summilux ASPH is 0.7M, a bigger difference than you might think.

 

[lin8810]

Thank you guys! I really appreciate your valueable comments!
Well, if I get a MP and Noctilux, I didn't mean I will only use it for baby's photo. I may also carry it with my Billingham M bag (ya, I currently use this bag for R9 and 28-90mm) everyday and enjoy photography myself.
Except you guys' comments above, sorry I still have 2 questions:
1) Can I totally rely on MP's metering? Will that be accurate enough?
2) Can I use Noctilux as an universal lense? Such as use it at f8 or smaller in the day time shooting.
I don't wanna get a M7 only becuase I want to have a "mechanical" perfection~

 

[telenous]

If I am going to join M family, I definitely will just buy one lense. Currently my target is to get a used MP and used Noctilux. I guess I can enjoy myself in photography by owning this combination....

I just want to know that does there anyone have both systems? Any comments to my plan or it's just a waste of money?

Regarding MP and Noctilux, will that be a good idea if I buy a 1.25x to help focusing on 0.72 body? And, if I totally rely on MP's metering, will that be accurate enough?

Thanks at all!! Have a good day!!

Welcome to the forum.

I use the Leica-R system alongside the M-system too. The idea was to complement the Μ-system with two or three SLR prime lenses that will make possible getting closer as well as further than what rangefinders generally allow. I think your idea is good. I spent some time thinking which R lenses to get and finally decided there was no reason to go the fastest lens possible route again since I have that ground covered with M cameras and lenses.

As for a recommendation on what to get for an M camera, I fully agree with Tom above, and I think you will do better with a more compact fast lens than the Noctilux. If you insist on having a fast 50mm lens only I believe you will enjoy the Summilux 50mm Asph. I have used it and used it, it just has an astounding wide open performance, which I personally have never before seen by any lens in any focal length whatsoever (in other words, I enthusiastically agree with Tom's assessement it may be the best 50mm lens ever made).

But, if you don't mind using a 35mm lens instead of a 50mm, the Summilux 35 f/1.4 Asph may also be of interest to you, and it may afford you one extra stop just because it is a shorter focal length than the 50mm and thus you may be able to handhold it for one shutter speed slower.

EDIT: I forgot to say that you have many other fast options from Voigtlander and Zeiss. Not to mention some of the vintage fast lenses out there. They are obviously all good, up to you if you want to investigate that route.

1) Can I totally rely on MP's metering? Will that be accurate enough?
2) Can I use Noctilux as an universal lense? Such as use it at f8 or smaller in the day time shooting.
I don't wanna get a M7 only becuase I want to have a "mechanical" perfection~

1) Yes, you can rely on the MP's metering. It's archaic by comparison to, well, anything, but surprisingly accurate.
2) You can use the Nocti as a universal lens, nothing wrong with doing so. The only thing is that it is quite large and slower to focus because of the long focus throw.

Best of luck in your choice!

 

[rxmd]

Any comments to my plan or it's just a waste of money?

It's just a waste of money.

I don't know the US prices, but over here a used Summilux-R 50/f1.4 costs about 350 EUR. For comparison, a used Summilux-M 50/1.4 costs at least 700 EUR, a used MP costs about 1800 EUR in good shape, and a Noctilux costs 2500 EUR. So if you take the Summilux-M, you are looking at spending eight times as much money (2500 vs. 350 EUR) for a system which gets you practically no benefit at all; after all, you intend to buy only one lens. If you take the Noctilux, you are looking at spending thirteen times as much (4300 vs. 350 EUR) for a system that gets you one extra stop that isn't worth that much in practice and gets you the problem of rangefinder accuracy and focus shift. For that kind of money you can get your Summilux-R and a DMR digital module.

What's more, there is no combination of body and lens, including Bessas and Zeisses, that will get you into 50/1.4 territorry at all in the M system for the price of a Summilux-R. Get ready for a Jupiter-3 and a screw mount body. OK, maybe a Leica CL. Not a bad choice, mind you, but not what you're looking for as far as I can see.

Get a prime for your R system. They're cheap in comparison with M lenses, and they're excellent. Judging by recent eBay prices, for the price of the Summilux-M plus MP combination (2500 EUR), you can get a Summilux-R 50/1.4 (350 EUR), the excellent Summilux-R 80/1.4 as a beautiful portrait lens (1100 EUR), an Elmarit-R 19/2.8 ultrawideangle (700 EUR), and a Summicron-R 35/2.0 for good measure (200 EUR). All of them are either faster than what you have or extend your focal length range. There is simply no way that you will get this much value in the M system. I know that this is the rangefinder forum, but in this particular case it's not worth it IMHO.

Philipp

 

[Tom A]

You can rely on the Mp meter, but as this is a rangefinder camera, you will soon figure out how to over ride it when you need too.
As for the Noctilux as an "all around lens" - I would not recommend it. It is big and bulky and you keep bumping it into things. I dont know how many of the hoods I lost to doorframes in cars .
I had Noctiluxes from day one. The first 1.2 aspherical (nice collectible, but not that impressive perfomance) and after that I went through about 5 more over the decades. In the end (around 2004) I decided that I was carrying a lot of weight for something that I rarely used (the f1 setting). I know that there is a tendency among M users to want to try it, but it is a special case lens. If your work involves a lot of low light/high contrast stuff, by all means get one and get it out of your system! There are plenty of used ones around and though expensive, they tend to hold their value (other M-users with the same desire always seem to exceed supply).
One of the advantages to the M-mount is that it is now the industrial standard for rangefinder cameras and we have never had so many variations of M-lenses available! There is a huge supply of older M-lenses as well as the new lenses from Voigtlander, Zeiss and there is still Konica and Ricoh m-compatible lenses in abundance.
If you are set on a fast 50 (or 60mm) there are still 50f1.2 and 60f 1.2 Hexanon's out there. These are modern configurations of the older versions and as good if not better than the Noctilux.
From a performance point of view, the 50f14 Asph Summilux is vastly better and the loss of a stop is off set by the hand holding ability of a M. To gain an extra stop I also recommend the Softie, the little dome shaped release button that you screw in to the release. It will give you one more stop and you can shoot 1/8 sec and be sure of sharp images. In spite of being the manufacturer of one form of it, there are variations (Luigi's stainless steel ones and others). They all work the same way and they do help.

 

[Michiel Fokkema]

It's just a waste of money.

I don't know the US prices, but over here a used Summilux-R 50/f1.4 costs about 350 EUR. For comparison, a used Summilux-M 50/1.4 costs at least 700 EUR, a used MP costs about 1800 EUR in good shape, and a Noctilux costs 2500 EUR. So if you take the Summilux-M, you are looking at spending eight times as much money (2500 vs. 350 EUR) for a system which gets you practically no benefit at all; after all, you intend to buy only one lens. If you take the Noctilux, you are looking at spending thirteen times as much (4300 vs. 350 EUR) for a system that gets you one extra stop that isn't worth that much in practice and gets you the problem of rangefinder accuracy and focus shift. For that kind of money you can get your Summilux-R and a DMR digital module.

What's more, there is no combination of body and lens, including Bessas and Zeisses, that will get you into 50/1.4 territorry at all in the M system for the price of a Summilux-R. Get ready for a Jupiter-3 and a screw mount body. OK, maybe a Leica CL. Not a bad choice, mind you, but not what you're looking for as far as I can see.

Get a prime for your R system. They're cheap in comparison with M lenses, and they're excellent. Judging by recent eBay prices, for the price of the Summilux-M plus MP combination (2500 EUR), you can get a Summilux-R 50/1.4 (350 EUR), the excellent Summilux-R 80/1.4 as a beautiful portrait lens (1100 EUR), an Elmarit-R 19/2.8 ultrawideangle (700 EUR), and a Summicron-R 35/2.0 for good measure (200 EUR). All of them are either faster than what you have or extend your focal length range. There is simply no way that you will get this much value in the M system. I know that this is the rangefinder forum, but in this particular case it's not worth it IMHO.

Philipp

fully agree. r lenses are as good as M lenses in practical use. But aren't you a bit optimistic on the prices? I can;t find a 35/2 below EUR 350. A 50/1.4 for Eur 350? i'd buy it right away if you tell me where🙂
On the other hand i just got a 19/2.8 1st version for EUr 350. This is a really nice lens, hardly any distortion. can't imagine how good the 2nd version will be.

Cheers,

Michiel Fokkema

 

[rxmd]

fully agree. r lenses are as good as M lenses in practical use. But aren't you a bit optimistic on the prices? I can;t find a 35/2 below EUR 350. A 50/1.4 for Eur 350? i'd buy it right away if you tell me where🙂

I got most of those prices off recent eBay auctions.

For example over the last month, for the Summicron-R 35/2 there was 120192360924 for 184 EUR. Spending a little more you get 270189703710 for 252 EUR or 160183481045 for 265 EUR. The Leicaflex version is really cheap: 190176597475 - 116 EUR; 230197834765 - 134 EUR (2-cam). For the Summilux-R 50/1.4, there was 180191600146 for 386 EUR, 270193252781 for 352 EUR, 190182766076 for 330 EUR (all 3-cam as far as I can see) - or 140185438280 for 515 EUR including an R4 😉 So with a little bit of hunting it's possible to get very good prices.

The 80/1.4 sold elsewhere for 625 EUR (320188913283) which is a steal - the lens is on par with the 75/1.4 for the M system which sells for 1500 EUR or so, only that the R lens is easier to focus. If we factor this into our "how many R primes can we get for the price of a used MP plus 50/1.4" calculation, in that case there is also room for the 60/2.8 Macro Elmarit that Salgado uses, plus 1:1 adapter, for about 350 EUR 😉

If he has an R9 already, an M system isn't worth it IMHO in this particular case. OK, it's a bit bigger, but it's eight times cheaper and it's a Leica. If he wants to get just one lens, a Canonet is a much better choice for 1/50th the money, and it's smaller than an MP, too.

Philipp

 

[Rob-F]

I would say to get a longer than normal lens, so you don't have to get right up in the baby's face with a camera. How about the 80mm f/1.4 for the Leica R? Or a 90mm Summicron, for either M or R? If you want to play around with the M system, I would use the 75mm Summilux. Definitely not a Noctilux!

 

[tbm]

Portrait lens

Portrait lens

I highly recommend the 80mm Summilux-R lens for capturing images of people of all ages. I've been doing that for about five years and females do not run away in horror because it does not enhance facial blemishes, lines, and other aging and DNA-based anomalies. (The latest 90mm APO Summicron-R, however, will do just that due to its knife-like sharpness.) I used the 80 last year, for example, to capture an image of my dermatologist's shoulders, neck, face, and head top all at once with the lens opened to f/1.4 and he was shocked by the beauty of the black and white print.

 

[mfogiel]

lin 8810
The general counsel given so far is sound. If you just want a good portrait lens, the 80mm for your SLR will be great. The M system though, will let you get a higher percentage of well composed, well focused and high quality shots due to the "rangefinder effect". So It might make sense to get an M camera, but frankly I do not think it makes sense to get into a Leica MP unless you really know what your critical requirements are. The "mechanical perfection" thing, is simply BS in today's world. An AE camera with manual option and exposure lock will be far more adequate. (I vote for Zeiss Ikon for the overall photographic performance)
As far as the lens is concerned, if you like a 50 mm with spectacular portrait capacity, look up the Roger Hicks review of the C Sonnar 50 in the ZI forum. Beyond 50mm, I know people are raving a lot about the Summilux 75mm. In my opinion, beyond this fl you'll be better off with a SLR lens in any case.

 

[RayPA]

...

If I am going to join M family, I definitely will just buy one lense.
...

Yeah, right! That's what about 90% of us said!! 😀


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