Why all the Leica bashing lately?

[bob338]

I've noticed a lot of not-so-subtle Leica bashing around here lately. This Fujifilm X100 seems to have gotten everyone fired up and the M9Ti has gotten a lot of people angry.

So what gives? Is the M9Ti really that bad of a design?
Is the promo video really *that* offensive? It's advertising, it's supposed to be dumbed down for the majority of the population; dumb people.
Is it the price? $26k for a camera is ridiculous, even if I had that kind of money. But who cares? Some people prefer driving $100k Range Rovers and some prefer $500 Suburbans. Does that make either group less intelligent or less deserving of doing what they want with their money?

Does everyone really want Leica to abandon innovation in favor of maintaining the status quo? The technology in the M9Ti will eventually filter down to cameras that we use. If you don't like it you can avoid it like everyone did with the M5 and they'll figure it out.


I know I'll be labeled a 'fanboy' for my opinions in this post but I think this bashing is getting a little out of hand. Leica has been very generous with a lot of us in terms of expired and multiple owner warranties. They will still replace(yes, REPLACE!) every part on any M series camera if you're willing to pay the price. In fact they just stopped repairing LTM bodies a couple of years ago! Can you name another 50 year old rangefinder that can be sent back to the factory for repair?
The Hexar has been out of production for only a few years and parts are becoming impossible to find.

Fuji is responding to a market trend for retro styled cameras that will SELL A LOT OF UNITS, nothing more. Look at the Velvia 50 fiasco, they dropped it until enough people petitioned them to bring it back. If they were so concerned about the artistic aspects of photography would they ever have dropped it in the first place?

Like Mr. K of Cosina, I think Dr. Kauffman genuinely loves photography and is probably not getting much richer because he bought the company. Both Leica and Cosina are making lenses and bodies for the handful of us that still use rangefinders and I appreciate it. I'm not even a big fan of most CV glass, but I am thankful that it's there.

just my .02...

bob

 

[Alpacaman]

People get annoyed when something they are devoted to goes off and serves someone else - ie. Leica made the M9Ti, which is not aimed at the good people of this forum.

 

[antiquark]

I thought the design looked crappy, which is unexpected from a company like Leica.

Then it became obvious that the target market is millionaire teenagers, which is even more irritating.

 

[semilog]

So what gives? Is the M9Ti really that bad of a design?

It's aesthetically ugly and functionally stupid. No way to carry it but a bandolier? Braindead. Illuminated frame lines? Whoop de do. My GR-1 has had them for over a decade.

Is the promo video really *that* offensive? It's advertising, it's supposed to be dumbed down for the majority of the population; dumb people.

Haven't seen the video. Not interested.

Is it the price? $26k for a camera is ridiculous, even if I had that kind of money. But who cares? Some people prefer driving $100k Range Rovers and some prefer $500 Suburbans. Does that make either group less intelligent or less deserving of doing what they want with their money?

No, it's not the price. I'd sell a kidney for an S2, but the M9Ti is totally uninteresting.

Does everyone really want Leica to abandon innovation in favor of maintaining the status quo? The technology in the M9Ti will eventually filter down to cameras that we use.

What technology? I see no evidence of any substantial new tech in the M9Ti. That's a major part of what bothers me about it.

What are you even talking about?

If you don't like it you can avoid it like everyone did with the M5 and they'll figure it out.

I know I'll be labeled a 'fanboy' for my opinions in this post but I think this bashing is getting a little out of hand.

Nonsense. Leica is a company, not my friend.

Leica has been very generous with a lot of us in terms of expired and multiple owner warranties. They will still replace(yes, REPLACE!) every part on any M series camera if you're willing to pay the price.

At the prices they charge, they should support their cameras for a long time. Longevity and reliability are part of Leica's reputation as a brand -- part of what they sell. It is part of the value proposition. It is not done out of generosity.

Fuji is responding to a market trend for retro styled cameras that will SELL A LOT OF UNITS, nothing more.

Look at the Velvia 50 fiasco, they dropped it until enough people petitioned them to bring it back. If they were so concerned about the artistic aspects of photography would they ever have dropped it in the first place?

So Leica is a benevolent organisation that exists as a charity for well-heeled whose hobby happens to be photography, while Fujifilm is a merciless corporation that cares nothing about photographers or photography.

Thanks for setting the rest of us straight. Very helpful of you.

 

[Austerby]

I agree with the OP - I put up a post stating I found the M9 more interesting than the X100 and got a thorough roasting for it: now you're getting the same from the same people. It seems like there's resentment that Leica is not producing something, but I'm not clear quite what it is that those commentators really want Leica to make.

One can only imagine the comments if Leica had brought out the X100 - "a $1k camera without interchangeable lenses!" They can do nothing right at the moment it seems.

The only thing I'd really like is if Leica cameras and lenses cost the same as the Voigtlander range, but then that's pretty unlikely to happen.

Leica have a long and successful history, for the most part, and I watch in appreciation, but I have to be content to be able to use other people's cast-offs.

 

[semilog]

One can only imagine the comments if Leica had brought out the X100 - "a $1k camera without interchangeable lenses!" They can do nothing right at the moment it seems.

That's exactly what a lot of people are saying about the X-100. Any interesting camera will have its detractors.

So what?

Those of us who are excited about it don't generally seem to care that it is coming from Fuji, but rather that it is what it is.

Indeed, many of us are unhappy with Leica because the X-100 is not from Solms. This should have been Leica's camera. They had the better part of a decade to deliver something like it, and they failed – utterly – to do so.

Note that many of us are longtime Leica shooters. The first camera I ever took a picture with was my dad's M3. My main camera is an M6, and has been for a long time.

I think the S2 is incredibly cool and desirable. The M9Ti, on the other hand, looks like a titanium turd.

Edited to add:

Seriously: what technical innovations does the M9Ti bring to the table?

I can think of literally none. Zero.

On the other hand, there are at least a thousand recent posts here, and more in other fora, dealing with the genuine technical innovations in the X-100. The retro looks of the X-100 are the least interesting aspect of the camera.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Why are people bashing Leica lately?

'cuz they can. Lovers' spat. Remember the M8? That was some bashing. This? It's nuthin'!

It's about 6 PM here in IL. I've been in the house all day, and I still wish I could go out and burn a roll of Provia ISO 400 with my M4-2, but the light is gone, I still have duties to carry out in the house... Darn! And that accursed Leica M9ti at $26,000 that I cannot afford even though I don't like it makes me sooo mad!

Take care!

 

[dave lackey]

Bashing? Not been keeping up with the threads.

But, why would anyone bash Leica? If Leica knows their market and where their bread is buttered, what's the problem? Surely they do know it better than us on the forum....

Maybe they should hire the bashers?

Whatever, Solares has it right... wishing I could afford even a standard M9 makes me mad, too! So, I guess I am stuck with the M3...

Love ya Leica!

 

[semilog]

Why are people bashing Leica lately?

'cuz they can. Lovers' spat.

A lot of truth there.

I do love using Leica's cameras, and it disappoints me when they market substandard garbage (X-1, M9Ti) -- just as it delights me when they sell great stuff (MP, M9, 35 ASPH 'lux, 50 ASPH 'lux, S2, etc.).

Their failure to make a camera something like the X-100 has been a huge disappointment to me and many others.

I hope the free market works here. I hope that Fuji has a huge hit, and that Leica sales suffer for it. Go, free market.

And it's not as though Leica is the only camera company with the capacity to disappoint. You should have seen the Olympus forums after the E-5 was announced.

 

[bob338]

What technology? I see no evidence of any substantial new tech in the M9Ti. That's a major part of what bothers me about it.
What are you even talking about?

I am interested in the illuminated framelines, it seems like a useful idea to me. If you're not interested, don't buy one.

At the prices they charge, they should support their cameras for a long time. Longevity and reliability are part of Leica's reputation as a brand -- part of what they sell. It is part of the value proposition. It is not done out of generosity.

Does Fuji, or any other camera company for that matter, still support cameras they made 50 years ago? Maybe Hasselblad or Alpa, but I can think of no other big company that does. And I didn't say they were doing it out of generosity, I said they will do it for a price. Can you send an original Nikon SP back to Nikon for overhaul?

Thanks for setting the rest of us straight. Very helpful of you.

Why so defensive? I thought my post was polite, but still got my point across. I didn't intend for this to turn into a big argument, I'm just tired of reading posts making fun of a camera because people can't afford it or think it's not what it should be. Just wait until that X100 actually hits the street, it will be underwhelming I'm sure.

Bob

 

[antiquark]

If Leica knows their market and where their bread is buttered, what's the problem?

Made me think of this $30,000 Leica:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10440613-1.html

"The cameras, wrapped in red calfskin, say "Long Live the People's Republic of China" in red calligraphy and sport a Tiananmen Square pattern."

Who cares where the money comes from, as long at it pays the bills!

 

[gho]

It all may all boil down to status symbol or photographc tool. The image projected by the ad and the release of the camera seems to be something people can not relate with.

I hope Leitz Camera AG is not throwing out the baby with the bath water. However, it seems they are trying to foster their stance in the luxury segment, but on the other hand they may loose a lot of photographers. It would be a desaster if someone else released a decent, practical digital camera with an M mount.

 

[dave lackey]

Geez, been dealing with real life and death situations for 6 months now and haven't kept up with the photo/digi/whatever world. So, I checked in to see a review of the Fuji X100. Hmmm.... certainly not a looker is it?

Somehow, I am always underwhelmed by the newer digicams coming out as if all the world's best photographers' works using film cameras and digital cameras never existed, the new camera is the one ya gotta have!

I like what Leica is doing, no bashing from me.

 

[semilog]

So, what is so special about this camera?

There's an X-100 forum here now, and there you'll find a thread with over 1500 posts. I'm sure that you can get your questions answered over there.

 

[gho]

At the prices they charge, they should support their cameras for a long time. Longevity and reliability are part of Leica's reputation as a brand -- part of what they sell. It is part of the value proposition. It is not done out of generosity.

Interesting point, maybe they are also -apart from the practical value- selling an image.

 

[JohnnyT]

Maybe people are angry because they were waiting for a new kind of camera ; the rumors was about a moving sensor technology... Instead, they released a fashion camera completly out of reach of even those who bought the classic M9.

I'm not bashing anything here, but I think this was part of the trigger.

I kinda like that new design, but I'll never buy that kind of product.

 

[shyoon]

I think Leica is very much like Ferrari, in that for every good thing produced (M9, S2, 458 Italia, 599 GTO), depends very much on the bad stuff to do well to finance their products (Ferrari theme world, M9Ti). If that turns you off the brand, then so be it, but I'd rather the M9Ti to exist, rather than have no M9 at all.

 

[Paul T.]

If people didn't care about Leica, they wouldn't complain.

 

[semilog]

If people didn't care about Leica, they wouldn't complain.

^---We have a winner.

 

[braver]

Standard internet forum fare really. I try not to get annoyed by the senseless bashing of everything, and the self righteous 'brand x should not do y because it will loose their True Fans', but it's a pattern that reoccurs ad invinitum everywhere and it it's unsettling when it happens. Not just here, not just for Leica, but every single forum, for every single brand. There is even no sense in trying to have a debate about why it suddenly rears its head, it is like rain: suddenly it's there, and then it's better to stay in and wait till it passes.