Why all the Leica bashing lately?

[Olsen]

All 500 were sold within 2 hours of the announcement.

And how many was bought by the German Government?

 

[JayGannon]

And how many was bought by the German Government?

None as far as I was told. Most are going to Asia and the Middle East. I was told "very few are staying in Europe"

 

[ederek]

All 500 were sold within 2 hours of the announcement.

Well, guess I'll just have to watch Leica's marketing strategy play out.

I don't like all this fanfare and publicity over the M9 though, it makes the camera more recognizable on the street. More people seem to recognize it now than 6 months ago.

I hope someone buys 2 and creates a nice dual holster - a modern day 6-shooter. Scale focus for ten paces out and with zero autofocus delay, you've got the shot!

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The value of the dollar has little to do with my disappointment with Leica showing the M9ti at Photokina, the big innovation being LED's to light the framelines. I hope that Leica introduces a hybrid finder with the next real camera that they introduce, rather than this expensive toy. The "Pony in here somewhere" is that Leica will hopefully make at least 100% profit off of these M9ti's, and place some R&D into making the M9-II or M10 finder truly better than what it is now.

As far as the value of the dollar- Gasoline is under $2.50 per gallon here. A Gallon of milk is about the same. I think more people are concerned about everyday expenses rather than $26,000 cameras.

 

[bwcolor]

It seems to me that Leica will provide some sort of EVF and/or OVF, faster autofocus and better high ISO in the X2.

The M10 should have faster processing, better high ISO, illuminated viewfinder and possible more Mpix.

On another forum they report a meeting with Leica where they revealed that they have a third concept camera which is a mirrorless, full frame camera that can use 'M' and 'R' lenses. .. the M11? They stated that we should not expect to see this camera at the next Photokina.

What also seems to be the case is that given their limited resources, they won't be introducing new cameras at a fast pace. If this is the case, there will always be some level of frustration for those waiting for the latest and greatest.

 

[Olsen]

The value of the dollar has little to do with my disappointment with Leica showing the M9ti at Photokina, the big innovation being LED's to light the framelines. I hope that Leica introduces a hybrid finder with the next real camera that they introduce, rather than this expensive toy. The "Pony in here somewhere" is that Leica will hopefully make at least 100% profit off of these M9ti's, and place some R&D into making the M9-II or M10 finder truly better than what it is now.

As far as the value of the dollar- Gasoline is under $2.50 per gallon here. A Gallon of milk is about the same. I think more people are concerned about everyday expenses rather than $26,000 cameras.

The value of the dollar would have made all the difference for a lot of potential US buyers, if the price would have been half that of today. It would have made a huge difference for Leica if the dollar value would be the double than compared of today. Despite their high prices I hardly think Leica is making a healthy profit. Currency rates plays an important part in this, since USA has always been their most important export market.

 

[Olsen]

None as far as I was told. Most are going to Asia and the Middle East. I was told "very few are staying in Europe"

This could well be true.

Buyers in Europe, except for pro photographers who run a business, have to pay 25% VAT on top of the 26,000 $ - making the price of a M9Ti 32,000 $ off the shelf of an European dealers. What many well off European buyers do, however, is to buy expensive photo gear (jewlery, watches etc. etc.) at the typical 'tax free' outlest of the world; in the Middle East (Abu Dabi, Dubai) or the Far East (Hong Kong, Singapore) when they are out travelling. And then smuggling it back to Europe. That's why most Europeans are more afraid of a custom's officers than a terrorists.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

A lot of M9's are sold in the US, there is a waiting list still. If the price of an M9 were $3500, Leica would have to sub out to increase production to meet half the demand. When I decide to getone- I'll write a check for it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

This could well be true.

Buyers in Europe, except for pro photographers who run a business, have to pay 25% VAT on top of the 26,000 $ - making the price of a M9Ti 32,000 $ off the shelf of an European dealers. What many well off European buyers do, however, is to buy expensive photo gear (jewlery, watches etc. etc.) at the typical 'tax free' outlest of the world; in the Middle East (Abu Dabi, Dubai) or the Far East (Hong Kong, Singapore) when they are out travelling. And then smuggling it back to Europe. That's why most Europeans are more afraid of a custom's officers than a terrorists.

Dear Olsen,

A slight exaggeration. France: 19.6%. UK: 17.5% (admittedly rising to 20% next year).

Smuggling (or as we call it in Cornwall, 'free trading') has always struck me as being more trouble than it's worth, at least for cameras, but then, I'm VAT registered.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The value of the dollar has little to do with my disappointment with Leica showing the M9ti at Photokina, the big innovation being LED's to light the framelines. I hope that Leica introduces a hybrid finder with the next real camera that they introduce, rather than this expensive toy. The "Pony in here somewhere" is that Leica will hopefully make at least 100% profit off of these M9ti's, and place some R&D into making the M9-II or M10 finder truly better than what it is now.

As far as the value of the dollar- Gasoline is under $2.50 per gallon here. A Gallon of milk is about the same. I think more people are concerned about everyday expenses rather than $26,000 cameras.

Dear Brian.

Which don't come on until you touch the shutter release, and are pretty dim when they do. I'll stick with the present variety, thanks.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a Leica fan and an actual customer - I bought my M9 new from a dealer. I also have used gear (which makes me a customer too, despite the distinction some make - it was new once too).

I think if you could walk into any Leica dealer today, plop your cash on the counter - and walk out with an M9 and say, 1,4/50 Summilux in-hand... There might be less pissed off people out there.

But no. There's a waiting list on the M9. Half the lenses are backordered until who-knows-when. Heck, the 2/90 is supposedly backordered for a year and a half!

As long as everything works as it should, you move on. But wait. If there's a problem and you have to send your camera in - you'll be waiting weeks if not close to two months in some cases! That's just ridiculous by ANY standard.

We all know and accept that Leica is a small company and can only do so much at once. But instead of fulfilling M9 and lens orders, what are they doing? Making limited editions (some involving a fair bit of "R&D" or at least retooling) or stealing parts from the normal production line (e.g. 1,4/35 Lux). I mean, come on already - we have three special edition M9s already now. But the holiday season is coming...

Seems they're dedicating more resources to making a buck on rich collectors than keeping their actual, loyal customer base happy. I'm all for Leica making money and they can release special editions until the cows come home for all I care. But IMO, their priorities are a little mixed up.

Surely a 'rich collector' is a customer too? Only with more money. And extremely loyal.

Where's the 'fair bit of "R&D" or at least retooling'? CNC machines greatly reduce the retooling and in any case this sort of thing is a classic way to train 'prentices. Watch 'em closely and they learn a lot. I don't know that this is how Leica does it, but it's a classic approach: QC from time-served mechanics/inspectors, the best possible work from 'prentices. Profit too.

Their assessment of the priorities may be more realistic than yours, as evidenced by your comment that used gear was once new too. Well, yes, so it was -- but the money you pay for it doesn't go into Leica's pocket. Actually, they treat the buyers of used goods pretty well, with long-term reliabiity and good after-sales service. Certainly, I'd rather have a used Leica than a used Ferrari. I've never bought a Ferrari new or used, but I have friends who have...

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

^ Well, I guess photography isn't their driving motivation anymore, then. Disappointing.

The world is already chock full of money hungry me-too's.

Well, photography never was their motivation. They were a microscope company who decided in the 1920s to make cameras because it represented a commercial opportunity.

As for "money hungry me-too's", could you perhaps name even one other company currently making top-flight RF cameras, both digital and film. That sort of lets out the 'me too' aspect, and when it comes to 'money hungry', well, I'd say that staying in business was a pretty good idea, even if it sometimes offends those who set themselves up as more Catholic than the Pope.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Olsen]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a Leica fan and an actual customer - I bought my M9 new from a dealer. I also have used gear (which makes me a customer too, despite the distinction some make - it was new once too).

I think if you could walk into any Leica dealer today, plop your cash on the counter - and walk out with an M9 and say, 1,4/50 Summilux in-hand... There might be less pissed off people out there.

But no. There's a waiting list on the M9. Half the lenses are backordered until who-knows-when. Heck, the 2/90 is supposedly backordered for a year and a half!

As long as everything works as it should, you move on. But wait. If there's a problem and you have to send your camera in - you'll be waiting weeks if not close to two months in some cases! That's just ridiculous by ANY standard.

We all know and accept that Leica is a small company and can only do so much at once. But instead of fulfilling M9 and lens orders, what are they doing? Making limited editions (some involving a fair bit of "R&D" or at least retooling). I mean, come on already - we have three special edition M9s already now. But the holiday season is coming...

Seems they're dedicating more resources to making a buck on rich collectors than keeping their actual, loyal customer base happy. I'm all for Leica making money and they can release special editions until the cows come home for all I care. But IMO, their priorities are a little mixed up.

I think that Leica tries, desperately, to make a profit. To do this they have to operate with a minimal staff. The results are a slow camera production and slow customer service.

 

[Olsen]

Dear Olsen,

A slight exaggeration. France: 19.6%. UK: 17.5% (admittedly rising to 20% next year).

Smuggling (or as we call it in Cornwall, 'free trading') has always struck me as being more trouble than it's worth, at least for cameras, but then, I'm VAT registered.

Cheers,

R.

Putting a 25% markup on the 26.000 $ dollars givers a VAT of 20% of the sales price. We have had 20% (of the price) VAT here in Norway (Finland, Denmark and Sweden) for almost 10 years now.

All my photo gear have been 'smuggled'. More or less. But then I live part time in Singapore where I do prartically all my photo purchases (at Cathay Photo, Marina Square, and with favourite salesman: Sam Jeva)

 

[semilog]

As for "money hungry me-too's", could you perhaps name even one other company currently making top-flight RF cameras, both digital and film.

So far as I can tell, it is by no means clear that Leica is currently making film bodies, top-flight or otherwise.

 

[Roger Hicks]

So far as I can tell, it is by no means clear that Leica is currently making film bodies, top-flight or otherwise.

Depends on what you mean by 'currently'. Leicas are assembled in batches, as they always have been, and no-one outside the factory knows when the last/next batches of MP and M7 were/will be assembled. Of course it's conceivable (though unlikely) that they're making some right now.

They have repeatedly said that the MP and M7 remain in production, and I'm disinclined to call them liars. But there are those who are always willing to believe the worst. Those are the ones to whom 'it is by no means clear'.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Putting a 25% markup on the 26.000 $ dollars givers a VAT of 20% of the sales price. We have had 20% (of the price) VAT here in Norway (Finland, Denmark and Sweden) for almost 10 years now.

Sorry, Olsen, no it doesn't. Putting 20% on the VAT-free price gives the VAT-inclusive price (with VAT at 20%).

Cheers,

R.

 

[cidereye]

So how much is an M9 inc' VAT, in Britain, or Aquitaine?

In UK a new M9 in VAT is a mere £4850.00 - http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=16_23&products_id=1620

 

[JayGannon]

So far as I can tell, it is by no means clear that Leica is currently making film bodies, top-flight or otherwise.

Well apart from Leica specifically stating that they are...

 

[Doug]

In UK a new M9 in VAT is a mere £4850.00 - http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=16_23&products_id=1620

Not quite as bad as I would have expected... Less the 17.5% VAT (is that right?) brings it VAT-free to £4128. Those two figures translate now to $7332.25 and $6240.22. At B&H Photo in NYC, the price is $6995 without sales tax.