Why are M-mount lenses so expensive?

daveleo

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Please, guys . . . this thread is not meant to provoke another pi$$ing contest because "Leica" enters the picture.
It's a legitimate technical question.

Q: really.... are M-mount Hexanons and Rokkors optically better than AR (Konica) mount and SR (Minolta) mount lenses designed for SLRs ?

I like using Hexanons and Rokkors on my Fuji X-E1. I like the lens handling and generally love the results.
The SLR designs are $150. The same lens (FL & max aperture) in M-mount design is $450.

Putting the Leica brand mystique aside, can anyone rationalize this?
 
Smaller volume production and far higher precision required to make rangefinder lenses focus correctly, especially fast ones.
 
The same basic reason that drives prices for any goods,
supply and demand.

For instance, I just bought an I-61 52mm f2.8 FSU lens for my Leica. Huge supply and little demand, total price, $12 shipped from Latvia.

Oh, almost forgot, add another $10 for a LTM to M mount adapter (cheap knock off from HK)
 
I believe the first answer says a lot. In the used market, M mount are highly praised and have great resale values, in case of Rokkors and Haxanons. You should search for their original selling prices in order to compare SLR and M-Mount.

On the other hand, if you look at Voitlaender lenses, compared to prime lenses from other brands such Canon or Nikon, you'll see that the prices are fine for new lenses.
 
I think that the small rangefinder lenses are more difficult to produce and they require more precision. Add to this the fact that the market drives the prices, and you will see why rangefinder lenses cost more than same focal length SLR lenses by same manufacturer. I noticed the increased prices for M equipment 25 years ago when I would read Shutterbug magazine, looking for good deals on cameras and lenses. I would ask my self, why are these M lenses and cameras so expensive? Quality equipment that is hard to find costs more, even when "non-M". SLR Lenses in Rollei QBM (obsolete) mount can be very expensive today, depending on the type of lens and rarity.
 
Here is no mistique on Leica, at least for me. It is called demand. And no same mistique on why some RF versions are more expensive. They are less manufactured. Yet, more desarable among many users of small digital cameras and remaining true RF users.

In general, SLR lenses are made cheap. If not, then price is similar. Modern Zeiss SLR lenses as solid as RF lenses and prices are similar if not more expensive on SLR.
But not always. Canon 50 L is more expensive comparing to similar Viohtlander lens, yet Canon lens build is laughable.
 
But not always. Canon 50 L is more expensive comparing to similar Viohtlander lens, yet Canon lens build is laughable.


I only have one Canon lens .... a 70-200 ,2.8L.
Build quality is excellent.

Back to the question .... I would imagine its a volume issue as much as anything .
 
Smaller volume production and far higher precision required to make rangefinder lenses focus correctly, especially fast ones.

Can you explain the higher precision requirement? I wasn't aware of this and now it makes sense why, for example, a ZM lens costs more than a ZF lens, relatively speaking. Especially given the fact that ZF lenses have things like auto aperture stop down etc.

Also, given the higher precision required, am I mistaken to think that RF lenses suffer from focus shift more than SLR lenses?
 
Thanks very much for the replies. I appreciate the input.

To clarify my question: I'm asking why M-mount lens designs, made by the same manufacturer, same FL, same or close max aperture, are much more expensive than their SLR counterparts.
I suppose underneath that is the question: are they really optically superior, or is it simply they are harder to make, or simply the supply & demand issue? I accept that maybe no one knows for certain and also there may be no one "correct" answer. But I do appreciate the replies.
 
Why are Porsches, Ferraris and Rolls Royces so expensive?

They are well made items, made in smaller quantities and there is a customer base for them that want them and money is not a problem to them, they have plenty of money to buy the finer things in life.

Same with new or old Leica M lenses.
One does not necessarily need Leica M lenses to do great photography anymore than one needs a 1959 Les Paul sunburst guitar to strum 3 chords through their Peavey tube amp.
 
Please, guys . . . this thread is not meant to provoke another pi$$ing contest because "Leica" enters the picture.
It's a legitimate technical question.

Q: really.... are M-mount Hexanons and Rokkors optically better than AR (Konica) mount and SR (Minolta) mount lenses designed for SLRs ?

I like using Hexanons and Rokkors on my Fuji X-E1. I like the lens handling and generally love the results.
The SLR designs are $150. The same lens (FL & max aperture) in M-mount design is $450.

Putting the Leica brand mystique aside, can anyone rationalize this?

Small quantity production with lots of hand work compared to mass-produced lenses. Market forces too ... much more market for other mounts.

Generally speaking, SLR lens designs are better for adaptation to digital sensors unless the camera and its sensor has been designed for the shorter mount register and optical characteristics of M mount lenses. This means that, in general, your SLR lenses will simply work better on your Fuji X-E1 than M-mount lenses, at least once the focal length goes below about 40mm. Above that, the differences are minimal to none. While there are exceptions to this rule of thumb, it has been shown to be true time and time again. (Many of the more recent Leica M lenses were designed with the digital sensor first and foremost—notice if you look at the lens designs that they more closely resemble SLR lens designs optically, with retrofocus designs that keep the ray trace off axis more orthogonal to the sensor plane...)

Note that even Leica's SLR lenses (R-mount) tend to be quite a bit pricier than other SLR lenses. This is not just a 'brand premium' ... it's because Leica lenses, all of them, tend to have a much greater amount of hand work in them which costs a lot of time (== money), and the mounts are nearly always made of premium quality materials. There is certainly a bit of brand premium at work, no question, but it's not as much as just sheer cost of manufacture and limited production for a smaller market audience.

Only Leica (and Ricoh with the GXR's A12 Camera Mount camera unit) have designed cameras and sensors to work specifically with Leica M-mount lenses. That's why when all else is compared and held to be equal, Leica M-mount lenses tend to work best on Leica M (and SL) digital cameras (and on the Ricoh GXR with that camera unit in place).

G
 
I don't know, but that's never stopped me from speculating before:

Focusing precision. The focusing cam, focus distance scale, and actual helicoid(s) need to be precisely aligned in a rangefinder lens. SLR lenses have quite a bit of slop -- even among my Leica SLR lenses -- but that doesn't matter because focusing is achieved via ground glass, not mechanical linkage.

Size. Elements in smaller lenses do more optical "heavy lifting" than in larger lenses. Consider two 35mm f/1.4 lenses, say the Zeiss SLR lens for Contax/Yashica and the Voigtlander rangefinder lens for M mount. Both nominally take the same amount of light and bend it to the same degree. However, the smaller lens must achieve this with fewer and smaller elements, meaning that each element is required to do more work. This leads to both material selection and assembly issues. To achieve the same quality with less glass means using less common, more expensive glass types and curvatures. Similarly, the misalignment of a single element in a 3-element lens is more likely to be visible than in a 30-element lens, because each element in a "simpler" design is asked to do more work. So, making a smaller lens is more difficult, even if everything else is the same.

Today's manufacturing technology favors autofocus lenses. In terms of structural materials, brass and plastic both allow for extremely precise and reliable lenses, but plastic molds only become cost viable with high volume production runs -- but yield very low per-unit costs with very high volumes. In terms of mechanicals, brass helicoids require expensive manufacturing and assembly to achieve reliable and precise focusing, especially with multiple simultaneous movements (e.g., zoom lenses or floating elements), while autofocus lenses with linear motors can achieve sub-micrometer precision using automatic calibration and nearly haphazard assembly. Moreover, while rangefinder lenses could be made using SLR technology in the 1970s, building them today enjoys fewer and fewer economies of scale, further increasing the cost disparity.

Finally, I'll offer the "there must be a difference -- economics says so" argument. The concept of supply and demand says that prices will be as high as buyers are willing to pay and also as low as sellers are able to sustain. If prices are unnaturally high because there's lots of demand but a vacuum of supply, then new suppliers will enter the market. If suppliers aren't entering the market, it is because potential entrants have considered doing so and found that it would cost too much to offer a product for sale. So, while we've seen a few new companies enter the SLR lens market (e.g., Samyang, Zhongyi, Yongnuo), we've also seen Zeiss leave the rangefinder market. All this tells me that there "must" be something that makes rangefinder lens production inherently more expensive. ;-)

But I don't know. All I'm really sure about is that using a rangefinder is a good fit for me, and I'm willing to pay a premium to continue using that method of seeing and focusing. I don't think it is coincidental that the high precision requirements of the rangefinder focusing mechanism seems to be correlated with high quality optics, but I'll continue enjoying that correlation even if it is purely random.

Cheers,
Jon
 
You are crazy. Canon L lens build is awesome.

Was it another spark of sarcasm?

Canon L doesn't have metal hoods, they have plastic which is not only scratchable, but plastic mount worns out. Lenses have plastic fronts too which worns out as well.
My 50L crapped out simply because it is not only external plastick, but entire front is plastic and it is attached to the inner barrel by glue gascet.
I send it for Canon service, they took money, but focus ring was still lose after it: I was told it is within the spec.

I've had 17-40 F4 L it was terribly soft in the corners.

But thier modern cheap line, Rebel kit lens and pancakes are truly awesome. Aspherical elements, good coatings and price. Their new nifty-fifty would be my choice if I ever get 6D. No regrets on getting rid of 50L at all. Cheap build and lack of lens building skills.
 
Simple, because of what digital Leica users are willing to pay. I very well remember m-hexanons (28, 50 or 90) go for below $300 around here.
 
Simple, because of what digital Leica users are willing to pay. I very well remember m-hexanons (28, 50 or 90) go for below $300 around here.

Yep, that's it.

That was around the time I got my line-up of Hexanons, and sold them off once prices went up 🙄

Oh and can't say anything about EF mount Canon L glass but I lucked into a 50mm 1.2L in FD mount and it's built like a tank. No more Leica glass and sky-rocketing prices for me anymore thank you. A simple Sony A7 to go with it and I'm not even halfway a Summilux😀
 
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