Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
Yes, I am a photographer and I would consider myself as shy. Or maybe a better term would be 'socially awkward', which is maybe the same for many. What do I mean by this? The feeling that you get you might be embarrassed because you don't exactly know or understand the social conventions. Worse still, maybe you cannot correctly interpret the indirect reponses of people that you indeed said or did something socially awkward, Hmm, maybe there's a hint of autism in this as well.
Photography is something that defines me, something I do rather well. People know me as a photgrapher and admire my work. So I can slip into my alter ego 'The Photographer'. In this guise I can do things I normally wouldn't dare to do. Someone mentioned that you can essentially hide behind the camera. Also true. Especially when photographing rather young, and rather attractive women with not much clothes on.
Just my 2 cents...
jgw
Member
Well, there are many different interpretations of what shyness is, as can be found in this thread. Of course you're right when you say that 'someone who is truly shy' or indeed, anyone with a pathological social phobia certainly wouldn't choose to do people photography of any sort, never mind nude photography. I realize you're not really meaning this but I wasn't including extreme aspects of social anxiety in my hypothesis, just apparently quieter people, or maybe even introverted types. Such people might move into fine art nude photography!. Who knows? Though maybe not; I don't know. Who else has an interest in this sort of work on this site? Succeeding with images that you are pleased with is certainly empowering. Perhaps this is what it's all about?
I think this is over-compensation, which I think was mentioned earlier. Probably some shy people try a little too hard to fit in and get the balance wrong.
Thank you everyone for your contributions.
And thank you, Ronald H; you seem to prove my hypothesis.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Well, now we need to define extreme. If you're going by the numerical average, there are a whole lot of "phobics" in our society then -- people who are horribly embarrassed to even look at a nude, let alone photograph one. I run into those types occasionally -- they're not in the majority but I've run into enough of them that I think they are a statistically significant minority. I think our society creates them.
Conversely, a rather alarming question I am asked every now and then by guys is "How can you stand it?" I always feel uneasy around those guys. It's as if they think the normal reaction to the sight of a naked woman is to lose all control of yourself and leap upon her, no doubt spurting from every orfice. I feel sorry for their wives.
jgw
Member
Well I was meaning people with a real fear of social mixing for whatever reason, which would be a phobia. There are people who have a problem with nudity too; but these people wouldn't necessarily be shy. They just have some problem with nudity. This could be their nature, or part of their culture, or just an opinion based on their own reasons. Equally, this could also be some sort of phobia. I would say that generally, people in Europe seem to have less of a problem with nudity compared to people in the USA. But in Europe, aspects of this do seem to be changing. But this is a whole new topic.
Sure, detaching sexuality from nudity seems to be another problem for some. Probably perpetuated by a society where nudity if frowned upon. All very unhealthy!
pesphoto
Veteran
I happen to be quite shy in certain social gatherings. But you know what? I look at being shy as being a gift, Shy ppl are very intuitive, perceptive, observers, sound like a good definition of a photographer? Dont overlook the small things, which I think some(not all) extroverts miss out on or dont appreciate. Just speaking from personal experience
bmasonoh
Established
I would consider myself a mild introvert as opposed to shy. When put in social situations I can hold my own but that doesn't mean I necessarily enjoy it. For example I will most likely never be the life of the party. However, the ability to step into and out of a social situation at will is both reassuring and productive. Being both a participant and an observer has its place.
jgw
Member
It's interesting that you call your shyness a gift. When and how did you first decide this? Was it when you'd started photography, or before?
Interesting too. Do you enjoy conversation if you can lead it? Do you think you are absorbing visual information while/because of, being able to step in and out of social situations?
The fascinating area is this: for those that find this true, what is it about being of a quieter or maybe introverted disposition that helps your photography? Anyone else agree with pesphoto?
FallisPhoto
Veteran
I don't really see how that can be true. Well, I suppose it depends, as has already been said, on what kind of photography you are doing. If you are photographing people though, and you are not doing it in a completely haphazard "spray and pray" way, it kind of goes without saying that you will have to interact with the aforementioned people. Most people photography is, after all, a collaborative effort between photographer and subject/model. I think it is as vital an aspect as lighting, knowing how to use your camera, composition, previsualization, knowing your way around a darkroom (whether real or virtual), and etcetera. If you are inhibited, shy, phobic, or just uncomfortable with this aspect, I think the totality of the effort pretty much has to suffer, at least to an extent. Your photography would certainly not be as good if you neglected any of the other previously mentioned aspects, so why not this one?
paulfish4570
Veteran
the camera gives shy people a mechanism - permission, if you will - to interact with strangers. it is the same for newspaper reporters and photographers: most are shy people who obtain "permission" through their jobs to be open with people they do not know. i know these things: i was a newspaper reporter and editor for 38 years ...
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Is that really the camera giving them "permission," or is it that their jobs require them to interact with people and the job gives them a push, making them do things they don't really want to? I mean, we've all had jobs that we didn't really like doing before, but in order to get the paycheck, we did them. Thing is, if you don't like doing it, your heart isn't really in it and you don't usually do it as well as you would if you liked it.
paulfish4570
Veteran
the job IS the permission - or push. sure, you get ome extroverts in the business, but i figure in my experience it runs 2-1 in favor of shy people getting into the business. that, in turn, opens these people up. it's easy to sell a suit to somebody. it is much more difficult to get someone to describe the death of his child. shy reporters/photographers tend to win over people more readily than brash, pushy ones.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
That's not shyness you are talking about, that's compassion and/or sympathy. Shyness, by definition, has pretty much got to inhibit social interaction.
Excerpt from Wikipedia's definition of shyness:
"The condition of true shyness may simply involve the discomfort of difficulty in knowing what to say in social situations, or may include crippling physical manifestations of uneasiness. Shyness usually involves a combination of both symptoms, and may be quite devastating for the sufferer, in many cases leading them to feel that they are boring, or exhibit bizarre behavior in an attempt to create interest, alienating them further. Behavioral traits in social situations such as smiling, easily producing suitable conversational topics, assuming a relaxed posture and making good eye contact, which come spontaneously for the average person, may not be second nature for a shy person. Such people might only effect such traits by great difficulty, or they may even be impossible to display. Shyness is considered to be a neutral personality trait by people who are not shy, but a very negative trait by those who are shy themselves. In fact, those who are shy are actually perceived more negatively because of the way they act towards others. Shy individuals are often distant during conversation, which may cause others to create poor impressions of them, simply adding to their shyness in social situations."
jgw
Member
If you are photographing people in an observational way (street?), you do not necessarily have to interact with them, apart from an occasional smile or so. Yes, it depends on the sort of photography you like to do, and in fact, certain types of photography require this. If your interests lie in simply observing people without influencing what is happening, you can go about this quietly, unobtrusively and therefore harmoniously whilst still being entirely respectful of your subjects and environment in which you are working. I'm sure many 'quieter' people feel more comfortable working in this way anyway, as they frequently behave this way in everyday life whether they have a camera with them or not. Yes, if you are working professionally, there might be some subsequent interaction required between photographer and picture editor etc., but (as I've tried to make clear before) I'm not necessarily including people of complete social ineptitude within my meaning of 'shy', merely 'quieter' types. Therefore, for most, this would also pose no problem.
I understand what you're saying. The camera, is also a great 'passport' for gaining entry into many environments into which you would otherwise never venture. Shy people are not always people who have no interested in others, and therefore generating an impression of shyness. They can be the complete opposite.
Fascinating what you say about shy reporters/photographers doing journalism. Is this a well known phenomenon amongst editors? Of course, what you are really alluding to is sensitivity. This aspect of personality is often linked with the shy: he/she's quiet; he/she's shy; he/she's sensitive.! What can this sensitivity be? When used positively by shyer/quieter personality types it has nothing to do with nervousness or timidity. It becomes an asset and it becomes beneficial. Does it become these things to photography too? I would say it certainly does...for certain types of photography.
Your understanding of shyness seems to be limited to someone who is unable to interact with other people. No definition of shyness is that all-encompassing because no one (or no one's) type of shyness is the same. Shyness cannot be so simplistically defined. Even if it were to be, it would still be an intriguing fact that some self-confessed shy people do find that they do want to photograph other people; and replies in this thread confirms this. When they do, this 'shyness', for whatever reason, sometimes enables them to do their people-photography quite well. And this is the reason for this thread. If you find it easier to understand what I am asking by exchanging the subject-adjective, 'shy' for introverted, more retiring, less confident or quieter personality types, then I am happy with those too. What I am not asking is, 'Why are photographers sometimes people who might consider themselves to be suffering from a social phobia or social anxiety disorder'. As interesting as this question is, like you, I don't believe it to be true.
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FallisPhoto
Veteran
What I'm going by is the dictionary.
Well, the problem here seems to be terminology then. You see, true shyness really is a social anxiety disorder. If you're introverted, more retiring, and quieter, that does not mean you're shy. It might mean you have a less dominant personality, but it doesn't mean you have panic attacks when looking someone in the eye, as truely shy people do.
jgw
Member
There is not a problem with terminology. In the Oxford dictionary, there is a short meaning given for shy: diffident or uneasy in company; timid. This is the generic and collective meaning in everyday language (not medical) and it was the very reason that I posed the question. It's the very point of the thread, in that people described as such might still choose people-photography as something they want to do. They do, and there have been replies from people describing themselves as shy.
True shyness? This is a silly debate. Shy is not a medical term. Social Phobia is, and possibly Social Anxiety Disorder might be. Shy will not be found in a medical dictionary; Social Phobia will be.
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paulfish4570
Veteran
i think timid is the best synonym for shy in what i was alluding to in my posts. i went through this myself as a young man. in retrospect, i must say the permission granted by my profession sharply changed my personality, at least publicly. this basic shyness also was a wonderful blessing in that it helped me reach/teach young/beginning reporters for more than 30 years.
FallisPhoto
Veteran
Oh yeah? Actually looking at medical dictionaries, instead of just assuming I couldn't possibly be wrong and making grandiose statements that turn out to be in error, it seems they use the terms shyness and social anxiety disorder interchangably, and they do indeed use the word shyness in medical (mental health) publications and medical dictionaries.
http://www.shyness.com/encyclopedia.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=87595
http://metapsychology.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=book&id=4015&cn=392
http://www.mentalhealth.com/mag1/p51-shy.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7274825.stm
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/singletons/200811/shyness-mental-disorder-or-personality-quirk
http://www.alive.com/6814a17a2.php?subject_bread_cramb=5
http://www.google.com/Top/Health/Mental_Health/Disorders/Anxiety/Social_Anxiety/
It is also found in "normal" dictionaries, as I have alread demonstrated, but will do so again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shyness
I've looked in other dictionaries too. The shortest "general useage" definition I could find that went past "the quality of being shy," was "a feeling of fear or embarrassment," (hardly condusive to interviewing someone). There was also "drawing back from contact or famiarity with others," again, a trait not likely to be of asstance in any type of one-on-one communication.
Then I know that if someone showed up to interview me and their behavior appeared to be either frightened and reserved or brash and pushy, I would feel that the most likely reason for this behavior is that they don't have my best interests at heart. I can't think of anything that would be more likely to cause me to terminate an interview, even if I were initially inclined to grant it.
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jgw
Member
:bang:For goodness sake, yes. The word shy is used frequently because the word, 'shyness' is a collective noun. It's a generic term covering many relevant meanings. Therefore if you are describing other relevant meanings and aspects of this collective noun you can't avoid using it. I've made no grandiose statements in error at all. What is your main problem with this? The definition of 'shy'? Which word would you have preferred me to use? You photograph nudes. What do you do if someone who's agreed to be photographed by you unexpectedly finds it a little difficult to take their clothes off. The first word that comes to your mind without wanting to be too analytical, would this word not be shy? Or even self-conscious which is a well known symptom of shyness? It's still shyness and belongs to this collective noun.
I'm more interested in what you say about interviews:
When paulfish4570 posted his comment about his experiences of apparently shyer or maybe seemingly introverted or quieter personality types often doing well as journalists or photographers, it would seem that their 'shyness' was not apparent to the people they interviewed or photographed, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to do the job well. It might have been at the beginning of their careers, but the empowerment from this newly found ability and usefulness (maybe after years of self-consciousness) would only encourage them to do better. I can see this, can't you? I could even imagine them accelerating away into success, as seems to be the case. I wouldn't have thought that the people they worked with would have felt uncomfortable in any way. It seems these 'shyer' people had a sensitivity and empathy with the people they worked with which enabled them in their work. It couldn't be only compassion and sympathy, as commendable as these feelings are. You almost seem to have an aversion to shy people or something. You give the impression that to be shy could only ever be socially debilitating, and that there could never ever be any unexpected benefits? I could broaden this a little further at this stage. You might not like this either. I've done a residency in the past with photography and literature, and the quieter, maybe even introverted kids produced the most sensitively written poetry too. These children were introduced to me informally as 'shy'!
jgw
Member
paulfish4570
That's a great post, and well done.
FallisPhoto,
Here's a site for you to visit: http://kidshealth.org/teen/your_mind/emotions/shyness.html#
Read page 2 on shy strength.
That's a great post, and well done.
FallisPhoto,
Here's a site for you to visit: http://kidshealth.org/teen/your_mind/emotions/shyness.html#
Read page 2 on shy strength.
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