why do you care...

[literiter]

But old is necessarily better in cars or cameras. My 2004 Mustang GT is a heck of a lot better car than my 1969 Mach 1. Better handling, more power, less maintainance and just as much fun. My Canon DSLR's are far better cameras than the old Nikon F's. Practically indestructible with shutters rated 150,000 exposures.

I'm also drawn to old cars and old cameras. But I can't argue that they are better, my experience tells me otherwise. It's the look and feel I appreciate, not so much the longevity or performance.

True, old is not necessarily better in anything (excepting wine, cheese, old photographers etc. where old is always good.) but it does not disqualify it's utility. If a old tool can do the job, use it.

 

[wgerrard]

But old is necessarily better in cars or cameras.

I think you dropped a "not" there. But, you are correct, and it's a point you've made before. Cars and cameras are, in fact, better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Doesn't mean great cars and cameras were not produced back then. It just means that quality across the board has increased.

One big reason for that, not usually mentioned, is the use of digital technology in the design and manufacturing process.

 

[pingle]

Who wouldn't want something -- whether it's a camera, a watch, a car, whatever -- that lasts a long time?

Too many people. Consumer products with short lifespans are everywhere, and the idea that we can just throw them away and buy something else in a year or two is leading us towards some fairly horrible consequences. The problem is that with a Leica you have to pay for the 30+ years of use you'll get (admittedly, most of what you're paying for with a Leica is the name, but some of it is the longevity). With a cell phone/digital camera/lcd tv you don't have to pay for the cost of disposal, which is extremely high (there are massive negative externalities absorbed by, primarily, future generations (they can't fight back) and the poor in developing countries (they also can't fight back)). If the (at-the-counter) costs were corrected to account for this, maybe more people would be worrying about longevity.

Patrick

 

[Sparrow]

Le Creuset, good for stews and casseroles, except the useless plastic knobs, but there are better products for frying, sautés and sauces. Just like cameras you need different tools for different jobs; there is no one correct answer.

 

[photogdave]

Cars and cameras are, in fact, better than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Doesn't mean great cars and cameras were not produced back then. It just means that quality across the board has increased.

Too much of a generalization. It seems the Land Rover owners here might disagree, and as I mentioned earlier, there is no real equivalent of my car being made today so there is nothing better! 😉
I agree with Sitemistic that today's pro bodies are definitely better built than yesterday's, but I don't think it holds true for point-and-shoot and some consumer SLRs.

 

[shadowfox]

Because we (human beings) appreciate timeless-ness. That's why we take pictures of stuff "for posterity" in the first place.

 

[visiondr]

Too many people. Consumer products with short lifespans are everywhere, and the idea that we can just throw them away and buy something else in a year or two is leading us towards some fairly horrible consequences. The problem is that with a Leica you have to pay for the 30+ years of use you'll get (admittedly, most of what you're paying for with a Leica is the name, but some of it is the longevity). With a cell phone/digital camera/lcd tv you don't have to pay for the cost of disposal, which is extremely high (there are massive negative externalities absorbed by, primarily, future generations (they can't fight back) and the poor in developing countries (they also can't fight back)). If the (at-the-counter) costs were corrected to account for this, maybe more people would be worrying about longevity.

Patrick

You, sir, are absolutely, and quite frustratingly correct.

Watch this, if you dare. But, be forewarned. You will come away somewhat angry but maybe energized to do something.
http://www.storyofstuff.com/

 

[wgerrard]

I'd be surprised if stats don't show that cars made in the last ten years have fewer repairs per mile than in any other ten-year period. That doesn't mean we all like the design and style of those cars.

Le Creuset: I've had exactly one. It was white. White is a mistake because the enamel stains readily and is very difficult to clean. I eventually let something burn in it and had to trash it. Now I just buy stainless steel or anodized aluminum.

I'd equate the hassle of keeping a Le Creuset clean with the hassle of loading film into a Leica. Maybe we should have a Le Creuset versus All Clad thread as a surrogate for the film-digital battle.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Don't you want your favorite tool to work as long as you do?

 

[Sparrow]

Le Creuset: I've had exactly one. It was white. White is a mistake because the enamel stains readily and is very difficult to clean. I eventually let something burn in it and had to trash it. Now I just buy stainless steel or anodized aluminum.

I'd equate the hassle of keeping a Le Creuset clean with the hassle of loading film into a Leica. Maybe we should have a Le Creuset versus All Clad thread as a surrogate for the film-digital battle.

If you just want to burn food, cheap plain cast iron is best 😀

 

[pingle]

You, sir, are absolutely, and quite frustratingly correct.

Watch this, if you dare. But, be forewarned. You will come away somewhat angry but maybe energized to do something.
http://www.storyofstuff.com/

I've seen parts, but not all, of the series of videos. They're extremely depressing, but it's hard to figure out what the appropriate course of action should be.

 

[ferider]

Leica M3 and Mercedes 300SL? 😎

M3 is correct. The car is the one in our only wedding photo:

Not bad - two wheels too much though, still 🙂

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[Al Patterson]

Don't you want your favorite tool to work as long as you do?

There seems to be a joke in here somewhere, but I digress...

Sure, but at 52, most tools I buy will outlive me, even the plastic ones.

 

[rogue_designer]

Pingles thoughts echo my own.

KT and I are making a point of recycling and reusing whatever we can. Buying less, buying things that we think will last longer, and creating/making things wherever we can.

The casing on one of my jump drives broke in my pocket the other day. I almost threw it away since they are so cheap, but then I decided that was silly.

I spent an hour and made a new casing for it over the weekend. Good as new. Better maybe.

Modern Consumer society rubs me the wrong way. And worse, I know I've been a part of it for most of my life. Trying in small ways to reduce my own contributions.

And being in my 30's - the prospect of still using the same camera 20+ years from now is very real. And I have a few that I'd like to get into my future kids hands too.

Provided I can still find film, that is.

 

[GeneW]

I love the heft and feel of older, well-made, classic cameras, but I also love the conveniences of modern cameras. As much as I enjoy my M2, I may sell it because I'm not a fan of bottom loading. Just bought an R3A. Not the same build quality but will likely last me out.

Gene

 

[Roger Hicks]

Le Creuset, good for stews and casseroles, except the useless plastic knobs, but there are better products for frying, sautés and sauces. Just like cameras you need different tools for different jobs; there is no one correct answer.

Later (and earlier) ones have metal knobs, and they are of course replaceable. Replacement knobs are however surprisingly expensive, so when I wrote off one of the plastic ones (don't ask) I looked out for a second-hand Le Creuset pot at a vide-grenier (a sort of village swap meet here in France). I was prepared to write off the pan, use it as a dog-bowl, that sort of thing.

We found one that had food burned into it and was badly stained. It was 3 euros ($4). The lid was fine, unmarked. Out of idle experiment we tried cleaning the pan itself the same way we've cleaned ours when they've burned on: leave it soaking with bleach. After a couple of days and changes of bleach it was fine. I rather wonder if it is possible to write these things off, unless you're incredibly careless or too lazy to clean them.

There are other good makes than Le Creuset, but (like Leicas) you pay a small premium for the name. What you're mostly paying for is quality.

I completely agree about tools for the job, which is why we have two Le Creuset casseroles and one shallow one, plus two Le Creuset roasting/baking pans, and LOTS of other pots and pans from a wide variety of manufacturers.

Then again I've written cook-books as well as photography books.

Cheers,

R.

 

[visiondr]

I've seen parts, but not all, of the series of videos. They're extremely depressing, but it's hard to figure out what the appropriate course of action should be.

BUY LESS STUFF, buy with an eye for environmental costs both to produce, ship and dispose of, and follow the three Rs in order of importance; Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Most of my friends are more than happy to recycle, but few reuse stuff and even fewer are willing to bit the bullet and reduce their incessant shopping. Do you REALLY NEED that new ____ ? Will it somehow make your life more whole? We all have to ask these questions. If not for our sake, for the sake of our children, et al.

OK, I'll jump off of my soapbox now.

 

[Pherdinand]

The kind off sad part of all of this is that the reason we have access to all of these beautifully preserved 50 year old cameras is because, for the most part, they were rarely used. Someone bought them because they were beautifully made, metal cameras that would last a lifetime. Then didn't use them.

well,maybe for the most part.
But i have this Contax iia here that i bought from a retired wedding and portrait photographer.. his initials are engraved..and it is rather visible how much he used it. On the shutter, on the outside cosmetics, on the lens mount, everywhere. Works quite okay...
And stg even older, i have a 1937-38 rolleiflex automat. It looks like it survived a world war. Marred, scratchedbeaten up, stinky, well, it DID survive a world war. The frames coming out of it are still top notch, though! Its only problem is the film winding sticks sometimes: must check when loading with fresh film that the counter is reset to zero...
Not to talk abt my poor second canonet that had a bursted vf window and looked like a tram went through it.

 

[Pherdinand]

I take my cameras to visit him. He examines them carefully and states EVERY time (Alzheimer's)....."You need bigger negs." 😱

He might have alzheimer's, but i tell you a secret. He is right 🙂

 

[pingle]

BUY LESS STUFF, buy with an eye for environmental costs both to produce, ship and dispose of, and follow the three Rs in order of importance; Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Most of my friends are more than happy to recycle, but few reuse stuff and even fewer are willing to bit the bullet and reduce their incessant shopping. Do you REALLY NEED that new ____ ? Will it somehow make your life more whole? We all have to ask these questions. If not for our sake, for the sake of our children, et al.

OK, I'll jump off of my soapbox now.

To a certain degree, I agree with you. That's why, for example, I just started making my own yogourt: to trade those plastic containers (we were re-using them as tupperware, but we eat too much yogourt for that to be a practical use for all of them) for milk cartons, which are slightly less wasteful. I think stuff like that is a good start (and rogue_designer's awesome thumb drive), but I'm also skeptical that that sort of thing is a real solution. "The rebel sell" and "No-one makes you shop at Walmart" make fairly good (if, especially in the latter case, repetitive and drawn-out) arguments that relying on individual action isn't the solution. But if you say to people "Hey guys, I think we should raise personal income tax in order to curb over-production (or limit working hours, like in France)", you tend to get the sound of crickets chirping. Not to mention "Hey guys, I think we need a gas tax that offers a significant disincentive to driving a single-occupant vehicle more than an hour a week".

 

[Al Patterson]

BUY LESS STUFF, buy with an eye for environmental costs both to produce, ship and dispose of, and follow the three Rs in order of importance; Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Most of my friends are more than happy to recycle, but few reuse stuff and even fewer are willing to bit the bullet and reduce their incessant shopping. Do you REALLY NEED that new ____ ? Will it somehow make your life more whole? We all have to ask these questions. If not for our sake, for the sake of our children, et al.

OK, I'll jump off of my soapbox now.

Actually, we at RFF are rather green. I have lost track of how many used cameras I have prevented from ending up in landfills. That, plus giving things away on Freecycle rather than put them at the curb.