why do you care...

[visiondr]

To a certain degree, I agree with you. That's why, for example, I just started making my own yogourt: to trade those plastic containers (we were re-using them as tupperware, but we eat too much yogourt for that to be a practical use for all of them) for milk cartons, which are slightly less wasteful. I think stuff like that is a good start (and rogue_designer's awesome thumb drive), but I'm also skeptical that that sort of thing is a real solution. "The rebel sell" and "No-one makes you shop at Walmart" make fairly good (if, especially in the latter case, repetitive and drawn-out) arguments that relying on individual action isn't the solution. But if you say to people "Hey guys, I think we should raise personal income tax in order to curb over-production (or limit working hours, like in France)", you tend to get the sound of crickets chirping. Not to mention "Hey guys, I think we need a gas tax that offers a significant disincentive to driving a single-occupant vehicle more than an hour a week".

But, individual action is what it all boils down to.
On the other hand, if we rely on individuals to change, we'll never change fast enough. I really don't know what the answer is. I do know that what we're doing now is not sustainable.
I realize that our western economies are based entirely on consumption. Stop or even slow consumption, and the economy tanks, people lose their jobs, social unrest... Have you every asked yourself how an economy predicated on continuous growth can be sustainable in a finite world with finite resources? It's not an easy problem to solve. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues we as humans face. And it all comes down to one thing; what we choose to buy. Amazing, isn't it?

 

[literiter]

I realize that our western economies are based entirely on consumption. Stop or even slow consumption, and the economy tanks, people lose their jobs, social unrest... Have you every asked yourself how an economy predicated on continuous growth can be sustainable in a finite world with finite resources? It's not an easy problem to solve. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues we as humans face. And it all comes down to one thing; what we choose to buy. Amazing, isn't it?

This is the really scary part. The "economy" is really an artificial contrivance that we've all bought in to. If we were to abandon the "economy", with nothing to take it's place, the social problems would be enormous, but if we stay the way we are, sustainability will be the issue.

One way or another we will have to make a paradigm shift, and so many of us are afraid.

 

[pingle]

But, individual action is what it all boils down to.
On the other hand, if we rely on individuals to change, we'll never change fast enough. I really don't know what the answer is. I do know that what we're doing now is not sustainable.
I realize that our western economies are based entirely on consumption. Stop or even slow consumption, and the economy tanks, people lose their jobs, social unrest... Have you every asked yourself how an economy predicated on continuous growth can be sustainable in a finite world with finite resources? It's not an easy problem to solve. In fact, it is one of the biggest issues we as humans face. And it all comes down to one thing; what we choose to buy. Amazing, isn't it?

I agree that it's sticky, since at some level everything boils down to individual choices, but here's an example of what I mean: I recently started sending $40/month to help support a few kids in Africa. This made me feel better, and I started thinking about sending more. Then I started thinking about this from a mathematical/economical veiwpoint... either my money does nothing to alleviate the suffering of these children in Africa (I hope that's not true), or it DOES do something. If it does do something I'm making the situation less dire. That might in turn decrease the pressure on other people to donate, and so someone else, who was just on the margin, starts donating $40/month less. So, in effect, by donating $40/month I'm just putting $40/month in someone else's pocket.

It's not such a plausible example, but when you think about it with driving less and the cost of gas, it suddenly becomes extremely plausible (it has been confirmed by studies, as if it needed to be, that people drive less when the price of gas is high). A lot of individual actions that seem like they should alleviate the problems just increase the tendancy of others to take a free ride. So, I could drive my car less, but I'm only offering an incentive to someone else to drive exactly that amount more, since by driving less I'm pushing down the price of gas by a tiny bit (Ok... I don't drive a car, but you know what I mean). The only real solution is for me to convince my government (and then the governments of the rest of the world) to impose higher gas taxes, to force EVERYONE to drive less. And, while I'm at it, convince them to give the money to those kids in Africa.

Hmm... this is off topic now, I think.

 

[pingle]

The "economy" is really an artificial contrivance that we've all bought in to.

I don't know if this is really true. People really are out there building widgets, and other people are buying and selling and using them. People talk about "the economy" in simplistic ways (we have to), and the models we have for the economy are not that good, but I think the thing we're talking about exists (as an abstract network of relationships).

 

[crawdiddy]

I like the design, rogue_d. When I first saw the photo it looked like a vintage Zippo lighter.

And btw, Zippo's are another product that enjoy a certain amount of object worship. I have a couple myself.

 

[Al Patterson]

In the U.S. at least, 2/3 of the economy is fueled by consumer spending. Sadly, the only thing that could fix that is for the financial structure of the country to go bust and for us to start over. This is going to happen some day, of course.

The FED is about to lower interest rates again to try and get the economy out of this recession. And it will work, because with the lower interest rates, folks who are in debt up to their eyeballs can borrow even more to fuel their out of control lifestyles. But it's a fool's gambit, because it only moves the pain into the future a little bit. Eventually people won't be able to buy enough and the FED won't be able to lower interest rates enough, to keep consumers with enough credit to keep on buying stuff. And then 2/3 of the US economy collapses with terrible results.

But there is no way that I can see to fix that problem until the economy collapses, because I don't see many people willing to drastically lower their standard of living.

It's not a fool's gambit if you use the lower rates to get out of debt, rather than buy more whatever for the same dollars. The current housing mess was caused in part by people buying way more than the used to because the rates were low, who couldn't afford their houses when the rates reset. Of course the builders only wanting to build extravagent houses we don't really need didn't exactly help either. So while everyone was buying their McMansion in 2001, I was paying down debt from when I was younger and broke.

What bothers me is that I have been financially prudent over the years, but when the idiots take down the economy with their bad decisions, I will also get hurt.

 

[Al Patterson]

Al, if I was 30 something with a mortgage, a couple of car notes and three kids, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night with the economy where it is now. And, at 57, I don't owe any body any thing. But, you are right, it will take all of us down.

What amazes me is just how much debt people are willing to carry. When I paid about $15,000 for my last car, the saleman tried to sell me a $35,000 SUV because "I could afford it". (More accurately, the BANK would lend me money on a more expensive car due to my income at the time). I told him to show me the 30MPG SUV and we'd talk.

If I didn't already have a house, I wouldn't be looking to buy now, that's for sure. Maybe in 2010 or 2011, but not this year.

 

[wgerrard]

Out of idle experiment we tried cleaning the pan itself the same way we've cleaned ours when they've burned on: leave it soaking with bleach. After a couple of days and changes of bleach it was fine.
R.

Did you use full strength or diluted bleach? I've used a bit of bleach in a lot of water and found it a good way to routinely keep the thing clean. Full strength seemed too likely to damage the enamel, especially if in contact with it for days at a time.

If I was serious enough about cooking, I might invest in a range of Le Creuset goodies. Instead, I've got a hodgepodge of, mostly, good stainless steel pots and pans, which aren't that much cheaper than Le Creuset and are much easier to care for.

As always, the nagging question about products like Le Creuset is how much, if any, of a premium do we pay for the reputation? I'm very skeptical that marketeers don't willingly boost the price just because they can.

 

[wgerrard]

I realize that our western economies are based entirely on consumption.

All economies are based on consumption. Without consumption, there is no trade and no economy.

In a mythical state of nature, as soon as I persuade you to give me two apples in return for one peach, we have an economy.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Did you use full strength or diluted bleach? I've used a bit of bleach in a lot of water and found it a good way to routinely keep the thing clean. Full strength seemed too likely to damage the enamel, especially if in contact with it for days at a time.

If I was serious enough about cooking, I might invest in a range of Le Creuset goodies. Instead, I've got a hodgepodge of, mostly, good stainless steel pots and pans, which aren't that much cheaper than Le Creuset and are much easier to care for.

As always, the nagging question about products like Le Creuset is how much, if any, of a premium do we pay for the reputation? I'm very skeptical that marketeers don't willingly boost the price just because they can.

Dear Bill,

The stuff we use is labelled '2.6% CA' and can be used full strength -- but I haven't the faintest idea what '2.6% CA' means. I don't think any strength of bleach could actually damage vitreous enamel unless it's chipped straight through to the iron underneath.

We find Le Creuset at least as easy to care for as stainless. What problems have you had?

The price varies ENORMOUSLY. It's a lot cheaper in France than in the UK except during UK sales, when we commonly used to buy it at half UK price = roughly 2/3 French prices. We bought only during the sales...

Cheers,

R.

 

[nikon_sam]

Why???

Why???

I see most of my cameras as tools...
I guess we care about their longevity because of the amount of time we've invested in knowing them...we know how it exposes our favorite film, we know how mounting that certain lens will get the right angle, out of focus background or soft touch to your favorite muse...we invest many many hours in getting to know our tools and we're not too willing to just move on to another body without a good fight...
I have stated in another thread here that I have an Olympus 35-S fixed lens rangefinder that I love so much that I have two more of the same (working) cameras and two bodies just for parts when/if needed...
This camera was new in 1957 and you can find them for auction here and there but since they are no longer being made I have to do what I can to keep at least one of them alive...
The only other tool that I care so much about are the "Tools" I use everyday for work...some you can buy, some you can have machined and some you have to make yourself...just like the cameras I own, I love and use my tools and care about keeping them useful as long as I can...😎

 

[wgerrard]

Roger, I found that food did stick to the enamel and was very difficult to remove, especially because you can't use an abrasive cleaner. Good stainless steel cookware (which is typically some combination of layered copper, aluminum and stainless) is, for me, just as good for cooking and much easier to care for: No stains and I can use an abrasive (Barkeeper's Friend) without damaging the finish.

Pricewise, Amazon lists a 5-1/2 quart French oven for $199.99. That seems to me a much better price than I can get in local foodie shops.

 

[MickH]

Looks like there's some mileage already done, and planty left in that suitcase too!

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger, I found that food did stick to the enamel and was very difficult to remove, especially because you can't use an abrasive cleaner. Good stainless steel cookware (which is typically some combination of layered copper, aluminum and stainless) is, for me, just as good for cooking and much easier to care for: No stains and I can use an abrasive (Barkeeper's Friend) without damaging the finish.

Pricewise, Amazon lists a 5-1/2 quart French oven for $199.99. That seems to me a much better price than I can get in local foodie shops.

Dear Bill,

Interesting. We don't get much sticking, and if we do, an overnight soak and a nylon scouring pad solves it all. Burning on (forgetting the pan is on the burner) involves longer soaking with bleach but still hasn't been a problem in the 15 years or so since we started using Le Creuset. I don't think we've bought any in a decade except the vide-grenier casserole for the lid.

Cheers,

R.

 

[dee]

I find this reassuring 'cos when I asked about repairing my Canon G2 , which has the very occasional hic up moment [ like me ] , I was met with amazement - just buy an up to date camera . Goddess it's just a few years old - and takes excellent snaps - even proper pictures too !

ASdee is like floating in space , out of phase , with nothing to anchor me - using a 1933 Leica , and a 1947 IIIc , [ my age ] ... even my little Zorkis , knowing , not only that they will do what's on the box written before I was born , and will , with a little TLC , see me out ... is grounding in a way that the deeterioration of my battery fed Minoltas is not - I invested in a meter free Minolta SRs and external meter SR7s just because my SRTs without meter upset me .

Will I feel the same about my Pentax K 10 d ? No ... but my Leica M 8 - I hope not 'cos THE END is inevitable .

dee

 

[Rhoyle]

Yes, my wife and I have some La Cruset stuff that varies between new and from the 1960's. I have a cast iron frying pan that my mother bought me when I moved out of the house in 1978-it cost $3. I have my grandmother's 15-inch cast iron pan from the mid 1920's that she used to cook fried chicken in. I use it to make chicken with porcini mushrooms and white wine.

Most of my cameras are old. They vary between the Rolleiflex that my father in law gave me that he bought in college 50 years ago to the Spotmatic my father gave me that he bought in the early 60's to a couple of other Pentaxs from the 70's. My new one is a Rollei 35RF and a couple of Zeiss lenses. I'm hoping that they'll last 30years as if I'm lucky, that'll be about how much I've got left as well.

So why does any of this matter? When I buy something of good quality it's because I want to use it, get excellent performance out of it, and use it for a long time. I can't see myself spending $1000 for a DSLR that's just going to fry or require a battery that I can't replace before it reaches a fraction of the age of most of my other cameras. Some may think I'm cheap. But if I'm going to buy for quality, then I also want longevity. This explains my love/hate relationship with Epson printers. They work beautifully for a couple of years, then they hopelessly clog. A 50 year old enlarger will work as well as it did when it was brand new. Blah, blah, blah.......

 

[Rhoyle]

> Interesting. We don't get much sticking, and if we do, an overnight soak and a > nylon scouring pad solves it all. Burning on (forgetting the pan is on the burner) > involves longer soaking with bleach but still hasn't been a problem in the 15 years > or so since we started using Le Creuset.

Actually, my wife screwed up badly making caramel sauce in a La Creset. Burned it black. She threw the pan away, but I retrieved soaked it in bleach and took a wire brush attached to my drill to it. It's not as beautiful as when brand new, but it's back to being used again. Go for quality....

 

[PlantedTao]

I don't think about the longevity in my cameras, I have a Bessa R2 that I'm pretty sure will last as long as film...and the ZI seems robust enough for the work that I use it for. I care for my equipment and treat it like it will last forever and so far it has... if I buy it new, like the ZI (better yet the R3M), it will probably last for another 20 years I'm guessing. What makes everbody think it does not have the longevity of the early leicas???

I think too many people are caught up in thinking about a future where batteries don't exist, yet film still does! And german 1930's engineering is far superior to any quality product put out today...yes, you buy cheap and you get cheap, but a quality product like the ZI or CV is equally as good as any leica - without the branding and marketing that most people here seem to be against.

On a side note...what I really want to pass done to my kids (if that occurs) is not a camera, but quality fiber prints...done the old fashion way, so maybe one day they can pass it down the line.

Jason

 

[mhv]

BUY LESS STUFF, buy with an eye for environmental costs both to produce, ship and dispose of, and follow the three Rs in order of importance; Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Most of my friends are more than happy to recycle, but few reuse stuff and even fewer are willing to bit the bullet and reduce their incessant shopping. Do you REALLY NEED that new ____ ? Will it somehow make your life more whole? We all have to ask these questions. If not for our sake, for the sake of our children, et al.

OK, I'll jump off of my soapbox now.

I will add to your excellent point that even switching from "normal" products to "equitable" "ecological" or any variation of "conscience clean" will not make a difference either.

The sickest irony of all the rabble-rousing by the likes of Naomi Klein against the Evil Corporations is that people in fact still consume as much as they used to do, except they pick the "good guys" brand instead. I've heard people calling "No Logo" as a shopping guide for the guilty ones. :bang:

"Sustainable development" is a nice idea, but it's often just another way to sugar-coat the good old continuing growth economy. We have to face it: the way modern economy behaves, **** happens if profits do not increases.

And yes, we must fight GAS... it starts right here!

 

[jamiewakeham]

...soaking with bleach...

I've never had a problem that Le Creuset's own-brand cleaner couldn't fix. It's about £3 for 250ml and a bottle seems to last forever.

Intruiged by finding out you've written cookery books as well as the photography books, I had a glance at amazon. Are the barbecuing and sushi books yours, as well as the obvious book on starters that has Frances' name on the cover?

Cheers
Jamie