why is gear talk more popular than photo talk?

Talking about gear is much like talk about watches, which are regarded with far more fondness than one would assign to mere timepieces, and fountain pens, which exceed the basic needs of writing.

I don't see any reason for scandal here.

- Murray
 
"Second, learning about photo history, criticism, and artmaking is just plain harder. people who know a lot about this stuff are just less common, the population too low to reach critical mass. That's partly due to educational backgrounds (what percentage of us has a relevant degree or has been able to do lots of independent research?) ... "

aizan, that's absolutely true! Work shops which focus on portfolio critiques can provide the necessary tools; for example, they can teach which questions about pictures are useful, and which words are more helpful than others. That kind of talk helps me see how the unexamined ideas that I've had stuck in my head limit the kinds of fotos I take.

I also entirely agree with Larry Cloetta that just saying you like a photo, without saying specifically why, or which problems a foto might have, is simply saying the photo matches "preconceptions of photographic goodness".

Books on the history of photography can certainly help. Here's one I've used: Looking at Photographs, by John Szarkowski. I was introduced to that book in a work shop, and to many others in informal, face-to-face clubs that wanted to learn how to do good critiques.

Going to exhibitions with knowledgeable people is another terrific way to learn. People on RFF are interested in foto shows - there's a great thread about them. But we'd have to take the time to write, in detail, about the pictures in them.

Gear talk is easier because cameras are fun machines, and we can talk about their good points, and their problems, by using words and measurements most of us know. As karateisland said, "It's much easier than doing the actual work to become a better photographer."

I enjoy gear talk, but I need critiques. (If I could just figure out how to post my pictures here. I don't have a website, blog, Flickr, or other photo hosting service. Fujiform allows me to post from my hard drive. How can I post photos here on RFF? I'd like to.)

Critiques can be at least as much fun as gear talk! Let's have both of them! I've definitely benefited from questions and answers about cameras and software.

"I'd bet that some of the more seasoned photographers here are able to talk about photos in depth. They could write a tutorial on how they approach looking at photographs, and then anyone who wants to practice can start a thread where they analyze a photograph. Others can chime in with what they see. In addition, we could discuss books like the one by Adams or Szarkowski and pick apart how they looked at photos."

That's another great idea, aizan. I'd have to find my notes from when I gave lessons like that but, in any case, I'm very interested in how the folks here follow up on this, as well as how they think we can use other parts of the internet to provide critiques.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto just answered my question about how post photographs from my hard drive! Thanks, Chriscrawfordphoto. I sincerely apprecate your help. :angel:
 
BTW, I've always assumed we post only photo's that we think are good and so are not asking or wanting criticism.

Perhaps a thread along the lines of "how could I improve this" might work. Or even one on well known cliches...

Anyway, I'm sticking to my original comment that criticism of photo's can start WW3 and, as we are a nice friendly crowd, that's why we don't do it.

Regards, David
 
The problem with giving a crit of someone's work is worrying that I will cause offence or upset. I have had quite brutal (honest) critiques during my masters and sometimes it left me feeling upset, though I knew it made me a far better photographer it was at the time hard. So personally I can't bring myself to make comment on others work, saying nice photo etc though flattering for the artist is easy to say an would not help them grow but pointing out things that could have been done differently makes me uncomfortable. Now talking about gear is easy, I'm pretty much with digital of the opinion that nearly every body of the past 6/7 years is plenty good enough in 99% of cases. Lenses are perhaps a different matter, but I have not found any real dogs just not as good as some others. Even with an arts education I do have an interest in technical stuff.
 
In my opinion gear talk is more popular than photo talk because of a society that holds
the view that "fabulous gear" can produce impressive pictures.
Improving skills takes time and time is money today.

What is the social worth of skills compared to the question of to buy and to have?
Look what we are talking about more...
 
It's often obvious people commenting on photos posted here are afraid to be honest. At least I hope that's the case and the actually see how bad the image is but don't want to hurt feelings.

I had a though I posted in another thread on the topic. Develop a standard set of criterion for judging images and post it as a poll. All great images as well as bad images have common elements. The elements were voting on should be both positive as well as negative. In a poll you get a consensus of opinions. If the person wants to add a comment then simply post that in the comment section.
 
Local camera clubs have gone the way of the dodo, just as most local clubs of any kind have suffered with the rise and domination of the internet. I experienced the last founderings of my local club in the 80s and 90s. Prints and slides were judged once a month in many categories. Judges were taken from among the membership. Criticism was direct and to the point. It was obvious that most judges were partial to a certian style, just as the general public is but, over time, one was given a thorough undestanding of how their images were percieved and how they might "improve" their work. We also had guest speakers, local pros or established fine art photographers.

The local club was affiliated with PSA (Photographic Society of America) which provided another level of regional and national competition. The combination of critiquing and nurturing helped many to be competent and sometimes great photographers.

Some of the old internet photo sites did allow for objective criticism, but they seem to have died out in favor of the you-praise-mine and I'll-praise-yours venues.
 
My experience with two photography groups - primarily the salon I mentioned above as well as another group that's just starting up - is that photographers who want serious critique will explain upfront what they are asking for from their viewers. So, for example, at the last salon I attended there were a couple people who asked for guidance on portfolio formation, one who wanted to see if his photos were having the intended impact on others, and I asked about paring down a group of photos to a small selection to enter in a competition. If the photographer knows what they're trying to do and explains it, it's much easier for viewers to critique effectively, as they can first discuss the simple question presented before getting into the much more complex why.

In short, for the critique to be useful and to limit the problem of sensitive egos being bruised, the process must be about the photographer's intent as much as the photos themselves. Without that guidance, it's all left to personal tastes, which, as noted elsewhere in this thread, are widely varied but not terribly useful as a means of judgement for the work of others.
 
I think in a forum that is mostly about vintage equipment, "gear talk" is going to be inevitable. Got some new pics from your screw-mount Leica or your Russian RF or your old folder? Let's see 'em! And do tell us what camera and lens you used, otherwise they might as well all been taken with your phone.
 
Each and every person that can see can see the world. It can be different than the rest of us. Photography is the expression some use to express their thoughts, desires, goals and objectives.

What helped me most with my photography journey is finding a gent who helped me and became my coach and mentor.
 
aizan said:
But what about the #1 most popular gear topic of all time: What camera/lens should I buy? Highly subjective!



Absolutely, it's a complete fool's errand! The role of art criticism is to pick a needle out of a haystack, something you think is especially interesting, and suggest some ways that your readers might come to grips with it. It's always one step behind the artists and the art.



You've lost me at this point, because the way we'd be talking about photos (in a general sense, not specifically art criticism) is essentially practical. It's as practical as talking shop, only directed at the subject matter and aesthetics of a photo rather than its technicalities.
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But what about the #1 most popular gear topic of all time: What camera/lens should I buy? Highly subjective!

I was hardly defending the usefulness of those posts, and there is a reason they are widely mocked. I'm going to a bodega in the Bronx, which polarizer should I take, the Japanese one or the German one?
To preserve my faith in humanity, I tell myself those questions are tongue in cheek, and move on.

But, to your larger point, my feelings, and that's all they are, about the desire some people obviously have to either talk about their photos or talk about someone else's photos, over and above the healthy level we already have here, were summarized in my original post so no need to rephrase them here. But, I might address your last two sentences to clarify what I was getting at.

the way we'd be talking about photos (in a general sense, not specifically art criticism) is essentially practical. It's as practical as talking shop, only directed at the subject matter and aesthetics of a photo rather than its technicalities.

It's only the "technicalities" that are practical. Criticism, as a form of teaching which strictly confines itself to the technicalities, can be useful to another photographer up to a point, but that is as far as you can go and still be helpful. I am not good at studio lighting, because it is something I have never learned (since I don't do studio work). To get a specific result requires a fairly specific lighting set up. That's craft, and it is teachable. That kind of thing might be of benefit here, though you can find it all day long elsewhere.

It is "talk", usually devolving into long winded obtuseness, "directed at the subject matter and aesthetics of a photo" that I personally find to be as useless as tits on a mule. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to.
To say that person "A" knows more about subject matter and "aesthetics" than person "B" is simply pernicious, at least beyond a certain point, a point so obvious to everyone that it needs no "talk".

This is nothing more than what someone likes, it has nothing to do with whether a photo is "good" or not. In the art world, anything becomes "good" if a critical mass of influential people decide they like it, for arbitrary reasons which reside wholly in their selves, not in the work. This does indeed rest on much "talk". Duchamp and his urinal is illustrative.

Reading Tom Wolfe's "The Painted Word" on the world of art and art criticism would be more illuminating on this point, and more humorous, than anything I have the time or the skill for here.

If, on the other hand, someone has an unrepressable urge to correct the subject matter or aesthetics of any of the photos I might post here, I won't mind. They're just pictures, after all. Maybe it will, as you say, "help my readers come to grips with it" though I doubt that most are having trouble in this regard.
 
OP-"why is gear talk more popular than photo talk?"

The name "RangefinderForum" presumably reflects the purpose for which it was set up in the first place, and hence the entry-point interests of many of the people who visit here.
I hasten to point out that I'm not saying that non-rangefinder gear/utilisation things should not be discussed !
 
why don't we, in general, want to talk about photography instead of gear?

fear
apprehension
low self esteem
don't want to appear pretentious
a few years back we had a similar discussion on rff and some folks thought talking about photos/art was just too pretentious
don't want to appear smarter than thou
i see crap pics with positive feedback at times...especially if the pics are of someone else's family, pets, kids etc.
many folks don't think they are 'good enough' photographers to offer criticism
 
ptpdprinter said:
Discussing photography invariably involves criticism, which is frowned upon. When you are only allowed to post praise, you get a half a dozen attaboy posts and the thread dies, with no one learning anything. The upside is no one is offended. On the other hand, you are allowed to freely praise or criticize camera gear, explain why you do and don't like it, and post comments on how you would like to see deficiencies addressed. Whether or not you agree with all the members' opinions, you generally learn something about the camera gear in question.
Click to expand...

I think you just hit one of the HUGE nails on the head!!! If I could circle, star this post I would:) I remember when I was in photography class back in the day... circa 1997 haha... There was one student who never put up her photos for critique and the professor let her get away with this! I confronted this student and we had a pretty heated discussion my point was why even take the class if you want even post for work for critique when everyone else has to?? Your wasting my time, other peoples time, and no one is learning at anything isn't that the whole point of college?? If I'm remembering correctly this students point of view was that she had a vision of her work and that any possibility negative said about her work would hinder her vision... or something like that... It was such a load of BS... it was beyond ridiculous...

So with the internet years back I would critique other people work at various places here being one of them... Some took my critiques well others not so much...I pretty much stopping criticism of other peoples work on the internet because people are just so mentality soft and just can't handle a different point of view.. I really wanted to help others but they have this own little vision in there mind, and only look for praise... its sickening really... I'm never super harsh, trust me I've seen some harsh criticism that might make someone stop photographing all together... haha I mean if I was truly unfiltered on this forum and critiquing others work ahhh let's say it probably would not be nice for many people on this forum... A lot of the work I see here for lack of a better word is garbage... There is some nice work here from time to time.... And I know not everyone is not in photography to make art I get that, or is in it just for fun or a hobby... cool man.. But please at least be creative when making an image even if its of say your kids or a pet... Do a little homework go to the library look at some photography books find some work that you like even stuff you don't like at first and look at the work study it a little bit see if you can take something from it....

Any type of critique good or bad no matter how harsh is good... and will make a you a better photographer... I'll look at work on here on other places you you see nothing but glowing reviews of the work...I've rarely seen some one openly go against the grain and critique negatively... I've seen the standard cop out response from the photographer something like, Oh that's how I wanted it to be and I'm the artist...ugh It would be nice to return to a time where one could openly talk about someones work and not get crucified for saying something negative about that work.. Artists are praised for being open minded folks and such, which couldn't be further from the truth! To be truly open minded you have accept and consider negative reactions towards your work.
 
Sorry, Marko, but with your condescending language like "ridiculous," "sickening," and "garbage" I can't imagine anyone inviting your critique.

John
 
35photo said:
I think you just hit one of the HUGE nails on the head!!! If I could circle, star this post I would:) I remember when I was in photography class back in the day... circa 1997 haha... There was one student who never put up her photos for critique and the professor let her get away with this! I confronted this student and we had a pretty heated discussion my point was why even take the class if you want even post for work for critique when everyone else has to?? Your wasting my time, other peoples time, and no one is learning at anything isn't that the whole point of college?? If I'm remembering correctly this students point of view was that she had a vision of her work and that any possibility negative said about her work would hinder her vision... or something like that... It was such a load of BS... it was beyond ridiculous...

So with the internet years back I would critique other people work at various places here being one of them... Some took my critiques well others not so much...I pretty much stopping criticism of other peoples work on the internet because people are just so mentality soft and just can't handle a different point of view.. I really wanted to help others but they have this own little vision in there mind, and only look for praise... its sickening really... I'm never super harsh, trust me I've seen some harsh criticism that might make someone stop photographing all together... haha I mean if I was truly unfiltered on this forum and critiquing others work ahhh let's say it probably would not be nice for many people on this forum... A lot of the work I see here for lack of a better word is garbage... There is some nice work here from time to time.... And I know not everyone is not in photography to make art I get that, or is in it just for fun or a hobby... cool man.. But please at least be creative when making an image even if its of say your kids or a pet... Do a little homework go to the library look at some photography books find some work that you like even stuff you don't like at first and look at the work study it a little bit see if you can take something from it....
Click to expand...

Not to sound like a Vulcan or something, but you couldn't handle that student's point of view just like she couldn't handle yours. Or maybe she even handled it better. I'm not sure because more background information is needed to draw conclusion.
 
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