Why Isn't There More Snap/Zone Focus in Mirrorless?

[agentlossing]

I was looking with some interest over the new compact Fujifilm X-E4, especially with the 27mm 2.8 ii, and what a great street camera that would be. But I've really gotten to love the snap focus feature on my Ricoh GR III, not to mention I often zone focus with my Bessa-T since it's quicker and easier than using both rangefinder and viewfinder windows to shoot. Ricoh's implementation is truly excellent, letting you set a number of distances and showing you a virtual scale of focus depth which responds immediately to any aperture changes.

The Fujifilm XF10 had a half-hearted form of this, with two selectable zone focus distances, using fixed apertures (5.6 and 8). Not nearly as good, but there's some genuine usefulness to that function as well.

Simply not having to fight the inherent flaws of AF (worrying about what the camera will decide to focus on, focus and recompose, which takes time away from capturing the moment, or simply the time, however short, for the camera to AF) makes shooting a digital camera on the street that much better. But, since the functionality would be entirely software/firmware, it seems silly that other cameras aren't offering this functionality. Even Fujifilm, who obviously designed the X-E4 as a stripped down street camera, and who has a form of snap focus/zone focus already, doesn't see that as worthy to put in the new camera. Zone focus is just the sort of stripped down, quick and decisive moment-y feature that would be great on that camera. Heck, the 27mm ii doesn't even have a focus scale, so you can't do it on the lens either. Seems like a big missed opportunity.

 

[retinax]

I'm not sure I get your point. Do you want snap focus or zone focus? I believe you can manually focus each and every digital camera, so you can zone focus them. The "zone" part usually refers to the technique of thinking of a zone that is sufficiently focused rather than thinking of a single distance, and pre-setting that, so a mental thing, although of course a good dof scale helps immensely. Is it that what you miss? Snap focus is a different animal, the point being quick access to a pre-set distance while in af mode, which I don't see you referring to.

 

[jjcha]

Heck, the 27mm ii doesn't even have a focus scale, so you can't do it on the lens either. Seems like a big missed opportunity.

I don't disagree with you at all. Fuji's implementation of zone focusing tools is the bare minimum necessary in order to zone focus.

Ricoh's GRIII (and other GR cameras) are far superior, and you have to give Leica some credit (though maybe not a ton) for its implementation on the Q/Q2.

At the same time, the Fuji system does have the minimum necessary to zone focus. There is no distance scale on the lens, but at least there is one on the screen, with proper depth of field information. Many of the other manufacturers don't even give you that. Or they give you a "scale" with only that mountain icon for infinity focus and maybe a flower for the minimum focus distance, and no quantifiable distance indicators.

Also, at least with Fuji, the camera remembers the distance you were focused at when you turn the camera on and off. Most return to infinity.

The Nikon Z series, with some of its S lenses, can have a nice, somewhat workable, digital distance scale on the lens. But then whenever you turn the camera on or off, it resets the focus distance to infinity, which is extremely annoying and makes it unworkable for quick reaction shots on the street.

If you really want to kudge a form of "snap focus" on more recent Fuji cameras, you can do it using the focus limiter. But this is not an optimal solution for many reasons.

So I totally agree with your point -- it's disappointing that the X-E4 and other Fuji cameras don't have better implementation of manual focus tools. As you say, and as we've seen from Ricoh, there is no reason why they can't do it in a much better, intelligent way.

But maybe they don't do it more because we, zone focusers, are a dying breed. So while I'm glad that Fuji does give us at least the bare minimum, and Nikon and others will throw us a bone in some minimal functionality once in a while, I guess we simply don't represent a good return on their investment.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

All of those snaps and virtual dof line are slow and/or awkward/limited for quick street photography. IMO.
Lens with focus tab isn't. Only with this I could street focus without even looking at camera lens. 🙂

 

[Rob-F]

All of those snaps and virtual dof line are slow and/or awkward/limited for quick street photography. IMO.
Lens with focus tab isn't. Only with this I could street focus without even looking at camera lens. 🙂

You mean like on my Cosina-Voigtlander 25mm Snapshot Skopar? It has click stops on the focusing tab for one meter, 1.5 meter, 3 meters plus the infinity stop and the minimum focus at 0.7 meters. It's really pretty handy! It doesn't even have rangefinder coupling; strictly a scale focusing lens.

 

[JeffS7444]

18.3 mm Ricoh lens is well suited to this sort of thing because it's got deep DoF to begin with.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

You mean like on my Cosina-Voigtlander 25mm Snapshot Skopar? It has click stops on the focusing tab for one meter, 1.5 meter, 3 meters plus the infinity stop and the minimum focus at 0.7 meters. It's really pretty handy! It doesn't even have rangefinder coupling; strictly a scale focusing lens.

That I have mentioned is focus tab. I don't need clicks. I like my focusing as short and smooth. 🙂
It takes little time to memorize position of the focus tab for three street distances. Close, middle and far. The rest is DOF.

If I remember correct, some of Fuji X series lenses have reversed focus scale and adding of focus tab is possible. Like cable tie or TAAB.
Not to mention third party manual focus lenses in X mount.

 

[aizan]

This is something I've wanted as well, and I think the main obstacles are that 1) autofocus and TTL viewfinders are the default, and 2) it's intimidating. Consequently, scale focusing (especially scale focusing by feel - SFxF) is not a part of many peoples' skillset. There's not much demand from users if they don't know about it and have experience with its advantages in certain situations. And if people do know about it, maybe they are intimidated by it, which exacerbates the problem.

The good news is that SFxF is a trending topic on film photo YouTube. The first short mention that I found was in this video by Ulysses Aoki (March 29, 2020). He first heard about it in an old video featuring Matt Stuart (Dec. 1, 2013). Then, there was this video by Ivan Chow (Aug. 16, 2020) that explains it in more detail. Then Jae Rose made a very detailed video on it (November 22, 2020). And finally KingJvpes made a basic intro more recently (Dec. 15, 2020).

The hard part is how to explain and teach it without making it intimidating and putting people off, while not dumbing it down and reducing its flexibility. You'll notice the techniques and explanations range from "this is really advanced and takes a lot of practice" to "this is very simple and easy." Ideally, a method to teach SFxF would make the most advanced technique very approachable.

Once a pedagogical foundation is set, that would help create demand for focusing tabs or snap focus settings on cameras like the Fujifilm X100, Ricoh GR, and Sony ZX1. The problem and solution is social, not technical.

 

[jsrockit]

The X-E4 should have a focus limiter (all the new Fujis do I believe) which should allow you to set a start and an end point ... just choose the same point and then your problem is solved. For instance... in the X-Pro3...

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x-pro3/menu_shooting/af_mf_setting/index.html#af_range_limitter

I’ve told others here about it and they’ve confirmed that it works.

 

[Greg Maslak]

Back when the XE-3 came out, Fuji and Camtech photo in Montreal offered the XE-2s with the 27mm f2.8 at a deep discount, so I bought one and have left it set up that way ever since. It is my “poor man’s” X100s.

I use the virtual DoF scale to set zone focus with the camera on manual focus, the aperture at f11, shutter and or ISO either set or auto. I do everything before lifting the camera just like you would with a Leica M and am careful not to inadvertently change focus. Use the screen to frame and channel your hidden Moriyama. It works for me. With the new 27mm you even have an aperture ring on the lens, making setup even faster.

 

[Dogman]

The Fujinon 23/1.4 and 14/2.8 both have scales on the lens barrel when set to manual focus with the slider-style focus ring. The other Fujis that I'm aware of leave it off due to the focus-by-wire contraption and the ability to set the direction you want the focus ring to turn.

A good DOF scale is one of the benefits of the DSLR over mirrorless. That and battery life. And a great OVF. But mirrorless has its own benefits too. That's why I use both and find both necessary.

 

[Bob Michaels]

You mean like on my Cosina-Voigtlander 25mm Snapshot Skopar? It has click stops on the focusing tab for one meter, 1.5 meter, 3 meters plus the infinity stop and the minimum focus at 0.7 meters. It's really pretty handy! It doesn't even have rangefinder coupling; strictly a scale focusing lens.

Yep, the CV 25mm was one of the best engineered designs of all time. But that fact that the overall purchasing market did not appreciate it's advantages is good indication why Fuji never bothered much to provide zone focusing tools.

Why did the market reject CV lenses that could be used on LTM cameras or on M-mount cameras with a simple cheap adapter? The market directed Cosina to make native M-mount lenses, not lenses that could be used on both.

Why did the market reject the Bessa L which was low cost, light weight, and incredibly functional? Only because it did not have a rangefinder and required zone focusing.

We must acknowledge the overall market is not interested in functionality, only specs. That leaves out zone focusing.

 

[jjcha]

That I have mentioned is focus tab. I don't need clicks. I like my focusing as short and smooth. 🙂
It takes little time to memorize position of the focus tab for three street distances. Close, middle and far. The rest is DOF.

You can do this on the Ricoh GR series. I have my GRIII set to focus at 1.0 meter (at F5.6) on the custom 1 setting and 2.5 meters at F4.0 on the custom 2 setting. This allows you to change focus instantaneously, without looking at the camera, even when the camera is off.

 

[agentlossing]

The best thing about our modern digital cameras is that you can implement numerous different features and account for a variety of shooting styles without adding extra hardware or making the body any more complex. Adding a sophisticated zone focus feature wouldn't make it any harder to sell cameras, and, for at least a few weirdos like myself, it would make it even easier.

Ricoh, for example, makes it as simple as pressing a button a couple of times to advance forward or back to preset focus zones. Every camera with any design emphasis on street or snapshot photography should include this. I could even do without the distance scale, since I have memorized certain focus distances at a given f-stop (two meters at f11, for example) to get exactly what I want the majority of the time, with either my Voigt or the GR III.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

You can do this on the Ricoh GR series. I have my GRIII set to focus at 1.0 meter (at F5.6) on the custom 1 setting and 2.5 meters at F4.0 on the custom 2 setting. This allows you to change focus instantaneously, without looking at the camera, even when the camera is off.

Just U1 and U2 is not as near, middle and far with focus tab.

Not sure how you could do it without looking. How do you know if it is on U1, U2 or U3 without looking?

It is possible with tag (bump) on the white bar and tag on U2. The only loss of functionality is with gloves. Tab is no difference, gloves or not.

 

[shawn]

The best thing about our modern digital cameras is that you can implement numerous different features and account for a variety of shooting styles without adding extra hardware or making the body any more complex. Adding a sophisticated zone focus feature wouldn't make it any harder to sell cameras, and, for at least a few weirdos like myself, it would make it even easier.

Ricoh, for example, makes it as simple as pressing a button a couple of times to advance forward or back to preset focus zones. Every camera with any design emphasis on street or snapshot photography should include this. I could even do without the distance scale, since I have memorized certain focus distances at a given f-stop (two meters at f11, for example) to get exactly what I want the majority of the time, with either my Voigt or the GR III.

Set the Fuji to MF and assign a back button focus. Point the camera at something the distance away that you want to focus at. Press the button.

Easy, simple and quick and you don't have to look at the camera. Really can set the distance using the group and and how much in front of you you point the camera.

Shawn

 

[agentlossing]

Set the Fuji to MF and assign a back button focus. Point the camera at something the distance away that you want to focus at. Press the button.

Easy, simple and quick and you don't have to look at the camera. Really can set the distance using the group and and how much in front of you you point the camera.

Shawn

Yeah, I've done that in the Past with M4/3. It's not the same, speaking from how my experience has been.

 

[shawn]

Yeah, I've done that in the Past with M4/3. It's not the same, speaking from how my experience has been.

Not the same but gets the same result and I find I tend to get less shake that way. With snap focus I tend to mash the shutter button (to bypass AF) and sometimes get a little more camera shake that way. And with the back button focus you don't have to look at the camera to make the change. With the GRIII you can do it by touch if you have the default button configured but that two finger wiggle is a little tough with big hands.

If you reassign the snap focus to a different button then Ricoh screwed up how the menu works as there is no hard stop for the distance, it just scrolls through all settings so you can't spin the dial all the way to one side to know where you are and then click out from there.

Shawn

 

[jjcha]

Just U1 and U2 is not as near, middle and far with focus tab.

Not sure how you could do it without looking. How do you know if it is on U1, U2 or U3 without looking?

It is possible with tag (bump) on the white bar and tag on U2. The only loss of functionality is with gloves. Tab is no difference, gloves or not.

I usually just keep the camera on U2. It's not hard to have it ready to switch to U1 or U3 when I need to quickly photograph something that comes right in front of me. There's also a bigger gap in the dial between U3 and P, which tells you by feel if you're hunting around for it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is the same or a replacement for a proper manual focus tab -- there are many many other advantages to a proper focus tab. It's just different. In a few ways it has its advantages, in other way's it's much more limited.

But the point being that at least Ricoh did a lot of different things in the GRIII to make it a zone focus focused camera.

 

[aizan]

Yeah, I've done that in the Past with M4/3. It's not the same, speaking from how my experience has been.

Agreed. Back button AF technique is less than ideal when you have to switch focusing distance fast.