Why online piracy isn't theft

I think the general consensus at the moment is that stealing from a company or a corporation is not really stealing. Almost every person I know where I live has a hacked iPhone. And these are not people that I would describe as thieves, and most of them can actually very easily afford to pay for their apps if they wanted to. Same goes for software. On the other hand, I see very often European or American "white" tourists stealing stuff from 7/11 stores, as in hiding some items in their bags, even though they could easily afford them too. So I believe this kind of attitude is dangerous because people can freely stretch the boundaries of what is acceptable theft and what is not. I just think we live in bad times and decadent societies.
 
Stealing is unethical behavior and is wrong, period.

. . . . . to use the excuse everyone else is doing it, is just self deception.

Then again if you are going to steal, what is the harm in lying.


There is no general consensus that stealing from a person, company or a corporation is not really stealing. That is just a lie and self deception to cover up one's bad behavior.

I am happy to say I do not know anyone with a hacked iPhone and if they are using services that they should be paying for then they are thieves.

Everyone can do the right thing if they choose and I believe they know the difference.

Sometimes it is easier to just be a member of the herd and use the justification that if someone else is doing it them it is OK for me.

Which of course is just BS . . . . .

JMHO
 
rxmd said:
Actually it's not. Copyright infringement is.
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Let me rephrase the same intent:
Intellectual property theft is a crime when it falls under the umbrella of copyright infringement law, which it does not always, but does sometimes, in the USA. My point was with reference to the OP's article. But the notion can be extended to patent law. But as long as we're to be particular about language....

Hacked phones.... All hacks are not created equal. Using a hack to get a pay service for free is not the same as using a hack to acquire access to a service. I have a hacked Nook, which does not permit me to do anything but run free software on a piece of hardware I bought fare in square (much like the Linux on my Mac) at the cost of no longer receiving support from the producer of the product. One could make the case that I am using a product in a way other than intended, but that's a pretty shallow argument to make in the context of the long history of inventions.

I even eat soup with a fork!
 
This sounds like (I refer to the op ed piece primarily) like a bunch of blah, blah...

I'm sure its probably important to some legal experts, and may they solve it to their content. However, I still side with the artists, businesses that make money managing the artists' stuff, etc.

Just because people don't think illegal downloading falls into an arbitrary (old??) category called "stealing" doesn't give them the right to do what they do (which the op ed author points out). It sounds like these 'mis-appropriators' are just looking for any excuse to continue doing what they want. They should stop it NOW, period. Its wrong, whatever its called. Let the legal experts take their good sweet time coming up with a law that better defines this crime, but it the mean time how about if we just do what's right. (Geez... why do so many people on this planet need to be told to do the right thing???)
 
Well, if you hack your iPhone so that you could use paying apps for free, or if you use hacked software like Photoshop or whatever, you are certainly stealing money from Apple and Adobe. For sure there is a sentiment among many people that stealing from these big rich corporations is ok, like self appointed Robin Hoods. But at the end of the day, whether you're stealing a 0.99$ app or hacking a million dollar bank account, it is still morally the same. What I find sad, is that most people are not aware of what they're doing, they just do it because everyone they know does it. Ethical people are becoming a minority.
 
Well said Jamie.

Jamie Pillers said:
This sounds like (I refer to the op ed piece primarily) like a bunch of blah, blah...

I'm sure its probably important to some legal experts, and may they solve it to their content. However, I still side with the artists, businesses that make money managing the artists' stuff, etc.

Just because people don't think illegal downloading falls into an arbitrary (old??) category called "stealing" doesn't give them the right to do what they do (which the op ed author points out). It sounds like these 'mis-appropriators' are just looking for any excuse to continue doing what they want. They should stop it NOW, period. Its wrong, whatever its called. Let the legal experts take their good sweet time coming up with a law that better defines this crime, but it the mean time how about if we just do what's right. (Geez... why do so many people on this planet need to be told to do the right thing???)
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EdwardKaraa said:
But at the end of the day, whether you're stealing a 0.99$ app or hacking a million dollar bank account, it is still morally the same.
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Maybe.
Killing at war. Killing people.
Killing flies. Killing people.
Jaywalking. Killing people.
The world is full of slippery slopes.

But, hey, I'm just being academic here. Reality is that morality seems to be whatever most of us vote it to be at any given time and pursuing redress under said morality is a whole 'nother story. In point of fact, it is also an academic exercise. A more productive way to defend one's vision of morality is to persuade others to your thinking and/or out think those whose vision disagrees with yours. Well, that's my opinion, at least.
 
I have looked at this topic since birth, finally gonna say something, just cant resist anymore.

Ill tell you guys a story I was once told on this topic.
Before modern fridges there was a pretty big business on selling small ice blocks. Then came the boom of the fridges and a whole industry just disappeared. Think about this for 5 minutes...

Im a math student and taking mathematical economics on the side, so I do know something about economy.

Now I dont want to offend anyone here, there may be guys here who know more about economy than me, but I highly doubt anyone here is smarter than Switzerlands goverment in regards of economy.
Switzerland basicly sayd, it only hurts the big companies and they have to adapt to new "consumer habits".

I would like to remember you guys the ice block makers.
Now think about changing times...

Just read Switzerlands Federal Department of Justice and Police study on this. Its a good read.

My dad told me once "Doesnt matter how good your arguments, you cant change most people, if it would be possible, there would be a guy on TV every day of the week, telling us how things REALLY are."
 
Joosep said:
I have looked at this topic since birth, finally gonna say something, just cant resist anymore.

Ill tell you guys a story I was once told on this topic.
Before modern fridges there was a pretty big business on selling small ice blocks. Then came the boom of the fridges and a whole industry just disappeared. Think abot this for 5 minutes...

Im a math student and taking mathematical economics on the side, so I do know something about economy.

Now I dont want to offend anyone here, there may be guys here who know more about economy than me, but I highly doubt anyone here is smarter than Switzerlands goverment in regards of economy.
Switzerland basicly sayd, it only hurts the big companies and they have to adapt to new "consumer habits".

I would like to remember you guys the ice block makers.
Now think about changing times...

Just read Switzerlands Federal Department of Justice and Police study on this. Its a good read.

My dad told me once "Doesnt matter how good your arguments, you cant change most people, if it would be possible, there would be a guy on TV every day of the week, telling us how things REALLY are."
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THe problem with your argument is that is completely inapplicable to what's being discussed here: the war on the rights of creative people to earn a living from their work that is being waged by everyone from big business to individual customers who want what we produce but don't have the brains to realize that art is not and cannot be free. Contrary to what some believe, artists, writers, and musicians cannot live on air alone. Food, clothing, and shelter, not to mention the materials and tools used to create our product COST MONEY. Artists, writers, and musicians are not ice peddlers, our industry will never go away, because when it does, human cultures -all of them- will have died.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
THe problem with your argument is that is completely inapplicable to what's being discussed here: the war on the rights of creative people to earn a living from their work that is being waged by everyone from big business to individual customers who want what we produce but don't have the brains to realize that art is not and cannot be free. Contrary to what some believe, artists, writers, and musicians cannot live on air alone. Food, clothing, and shelter, not to mention the materials and tools used to create our product COST MONEY. Artists, writers, and musicians are not ice peddlers, our industry will never go away, because when it does, human cultures -all of them- will have died.
Click to expand...

I see you didnt read the study. Its okey I guess...
 
Joosep said:
Now I dont want to offend anyone here, there may be guys here who know more about economy than me, but I highly doubt anyone here is smarter than Switzerlands goverment in regards of economy.
Switzerland basicly sayd, it only hurts the big companies and they have to adapt to new "consumer habits".
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This is cool. As far as I know there is not a single big media company in switzerland. It's easy to reduce profit of companies in other countries.
 
Joosep said:
I see you didnt read the study. Its okey I guess...
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I couldn't read the study. You didn't give a link, nor did you give the title and publication info needed for me to search it out in the academic databases. I'm a grad student in History. I can read, and actually have a stack of academic literature in front of me now for a paper I'm writing. I'm not reading your study if I can't find it....and you blame me for not reading it...I despair for our future. :bang:
 
Joosep said:
I have looked at this topic since birth, finally gonna say something, just cant resist anymore.

Ill tell you guys a story I was once told on this topic.
Before modern fridges there was a pretty big business on selling small ice blocks. Then came the boom of the fridges and a whole industry just disappeared. Think about this for 5 minutes...

Im a math student and taking mathematical economics on the side, so I do know something about economy.

Now I dont want to offend anyone here, there may be guys here who know more about economy than me, but I highly doubt anyone here is smarter than Switzerlands goverment in regards of economy.
Switzerland basicly sayd, it only hurts the big companies and they have to adapt to new "consumer habits".

I would like to remember you guys the ice block makers.
Now think about changing times...

Just read Switzerlands Federal Department of Justice and Police study on this. Its a good read.
Click to expand...

I don't know why you would think that Switzerland's government is particularly smart when it comes to economy? I listen to what our politicians say every day and they can be incredibly stupid 🙂

Anyways, under current Swiss law downloading copyrighted material for personal use is perfectly legal. Uploading it, however, is against the law. Since most file sharing involves both down and uploading of content it makes the whole thing a bit tricky.
Also, there is a tax on all storage devices (CDs, DVDs, HDs, etc.) that goes to the enternainment industry and is supposed to make up for their losses due to piracy. I find this sort of funny. They're basically saying "you shouldn't download our stuff but since you're gonna do it anyways we want you to pay us a tax''.
 
flip said:
But, hey, I'm just being academic here. Reality is that morality seems to be whatever most of us vote it to be at any given time and pursuing redress under said morality is a whole 'nother story. In point of fact, it is also an academic exercise. A more productive way to defend one's vision of morality is to persuade others to your thinking and/or out think those whose vision disagrees with yours. Well, that's my opinion, at least.
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I think there is no ambiguity here. In all religions and cultures, stealing is wrong, as is killing. Now if a certain majority believes that stealing software or artwork is fine, because it's easy and anonymous, and they can get away with it, that does not make it right. Just my stance on this subject. I will gladly be part of the minority.
 
EdwardKaraa said:
I think there is no ambiguity here. In all religions and cultures, stealing is wrong, as is killing.
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I don't think this holds true. If I'm not mistaken there are cultures and communities that do not have a concept of private property, consequently they can't have a concept of stealing.
As for killing, this definitely isn't true. Many states in the US still have the death penalty, right? So they must not think that killing is always wrong, right?
 
tom.w.bn said:
Isn't that - like Universal Germany - just a local branch that ships it's profit directly to the mother at home?
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Yes, it's a 'local branch' of Universal although I don't know how they're positioned legally as a company. But that doesn't matter anyways. Universal Switzerland and also Germany have an interest in securing sales in their respective markets. Or, in other words, they are representing the interests of Universal in their market so it's not like they don't care about illegal downloading.
 
Jamie123 said:
I don't think this holds true. If I'm not mistaken there are cultures and communities that do not have a concept of private property, consequently they can't have a concept of stealing.
As for killing, this definitely isn't true. Many states in the US still have the death penalty, right? So they must not think that killing is always wrong, right?
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Not sure what cultures you're talking about, but supposing that's true, one can steal from the communal property 😉

As for the death penalty, it's the ultimate proof that killing is wrong, as the state applies an equal punishment to the crime committed 😉

Nice try though 🙂
 
EdwardKaraa said:
Not sure what cultures you're talking about, but supposing that's true, one can steal from the communal property 😉

As for the death penalty, it's the ultimate proof that killing is wrong, as the state applies an equal punishment to the crime committed 😉

Nice try though 🙂
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I'm mostly talking about indigenous tribes and such where things in the world are merely used but they don't belong to anyone in particular.

As for your death penalty argument, no it's not the 'ultimate proof' (wtf?) that killing is wrong. If you want to be logically consistent and you say that killing is always wrong then you cannot kill no matter what the reason.
 
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