Why the obsession with "Leica Killers?"

[Al Patterson]

Dear Shane,

Spite. Envy. Stupidity. Ignorance. Arrogance. There are no laudable reasons why. "Live and let live" makes more sense. Do I want to kill the new Sony? No. Why should I?

Cheers,

R.

There you go injecting common sense into the discussion. While I cannot afford a digital Leica at this point, who knows about the future? Today Ilook for the best $500 camera. Who knows about next year...

 

[uhoh7]

Already a Canadian blog's quick look shows the sensor will work much better with telecentric lenses, and will suffer with many Leica-mount optics.

Hi Doug,

The Canadian, Ron was using the A7, which no one expected to be the "one". Actually his results were better than many expected with that camera, by F/5.6 many lenses were pretty good on the edges.

The A7r is the messiah 🙂

here it is with Biogon 21

 

[Wulfthari]

True. And anybody with any sense at all, common or not, knows that the Big Names don't make the only good cameras (ever heard of Alpa? Linhof?) and that at the top of the market, you don't normally include Ford and BMW.

Your world picture is uncommonly solipsistic, and demonstrably untrue: ""I don't want/own/use digital Leicas, therefore nobody else does." You further imply that anyone who does use Leicas is living the the past, or in Never-Never Land. Even f this were true -- and you'd be hard put to support such a viewpoint -- who cares? As long as there are enough buyers to keep Leica in business making Ms, your viewpoint is clearly irrelevant as well as faintly offensive. Only faintly, because such such a viewpoint is a great deal more irrelevant than the continued existence of Leicas.

As for shutter design, to pretend that Leica's simple cloth focal plane shutter is inferior to the Contax roll-top desk is (to borrow your own phrase) "hilarious".

Cheers,

R.

Leica man, wake up! I'm a mechanical engineer...and it appears that I'm working in Ford and I also worked in Ferrari, I can distinguish a good technical solution for a not too good one, if you think it's "hilarious" perhaps it's better for you to go and take a MSc and then work as design engineer for 10 years in the automotive and aerospace industry.😀

Regarding my "solipstic world", actually perhaps you lost the memo that I'm a Leica owner (not a Kiev/Contax one, even if I see one of these cameras in my future) and I collect old film camera because yes, I live a little bit in the past and there is nothing wrong with that, all I wanted to point out is that:

1) Until the 60s all the big brands were in the rangefinder market, there was a fierce competition and a quick development of the technology, so in those days the photographer had more choices than today.

2) Where we are today in the other side the rangefinder market has shrinked so much that it's not perceived as lucrative enough for the Big Names to justify R&D expenses, money that can be focused in their core business, so in 2013 Leica is the only name for GOOD RFs, even if they sell it as luxury items to appear more than to be.

I think that these two statements can be agreed without any problem by most of us, then if you don't it's not my problem.

Ok break over, let's go on ebay to search for a nice f1.5 lens for my M3.

A lot of people here seem to be misreading the term "Leica killer."

When we say that a new Porsche is a "Ferrari killer" we do not imply that the new Porsche is intended or likely to put Ferrari out of business, but rather that it's faster, better-handling, has better stoppers, is sleeker, etc.

No one who pays attention thinks "Leica killer" means a product designed to put Leica Camera AG out of business. Rather, it refers to a camera that beats an iconic product at (one or more of) its own game(s).

Many posts on this thread give the impression that a certain subset of Leica fans has a precariously-balanced chip on its collective shoulder.

Word on that, it seems that the Leica fanboys are quite sensitive on the subject, as Ken Rockwell writes they get upset as soon as somebody mentions a camera that "might" be better than a red dot one.

As an ex Ferrari I can tell you that in 2007 when we received the word that Porsche had commercialised a 500 hp evolution of the Carrera Turbo half of the management panicked and half of the R&D team went on the drawing board (ehm, actually now we do everything with Catia V5) to work on a new project that could compete with the late Porsche.

My father knew the Drake (Enzo Ferrari) and he told me that he considered the most beautiful car ever the Jaguar E, and held it in high exteem, even more than his 250 GTO, then of course in the GT Championship in the late 60s and early 70s Forghieri & Co. had to face the "Ferrari killers", the Ford Gt40 first (and they won at least, even with an engine that had half the displacement of the Ford Big Block) and later with Porsche (they weren't that successfull, effectively the 917 killed the Ferrari in GT and the Cavallino retired from GT to concentrate on the Formula 1)...none of them accused the owners of Porsches or Fords to be spiteful, envious and bla bla bla, they all watched what the competitors were doing and how to make a better car.

Of course Ferrari aren't luxury items or status symbols, not at least at level of what Leica has become today, and their supporters are people that take certain expressions with a grain of salt.

Oh, I apologise for my long OT on cars and my personal working experience, but it was something I wanted to add.

 

[Ranchu]

Can it squeal, does it squirm
If it's fresh will it burn?
I can't put my finger on it
Can it fly, will it try If the wings are still wet?
I can't put my finger on it

Can it heal, is it real
Can it feel the threads of time?
I can't put my finger on it
Does it glow, will it shine
Does it leave a trail of slime
I can't put my finger on it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj_Wi--TTVw

 

[hausen]

My wife would accuse me of being a Leica fanboy but I still want the A7r more than I want the M-240. Love Wulfthari's post above, well said. Would be a reasonably safe bet that Sony cares less about the M-240 than Leica Management does about the new Sony and Nikon FF offerings. Shot a roll of film with my M6 Ti over the weekend and loved every minute of it.

 

[icebear]

... oh, I forgot, all that matters is how you focus 😉

Yeah, well I focus manually and I determine where the focus should be not some phase detection algorithm 🙄.

 

[uhoh7]

Yeah, well I focus manually and I determine where the focus should be not some phase detection algorithm 🙄.

My normal backcountry kit is 5 lenses. One has AF.

AF also leaves me cold.

I wasn't even referencing AF in that sentence.

So cool down icebear 😉

 

[jsrockit]

Yeah, well I focus manually and I determine where the focus should be not some phase detection algorithm 🙄.

Come on Klaus, I use one point AF and focus and recompose just like I do with a RF. It's the same result.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Leica man, wake up! I'm a mechanical engineer...and it appears that I'm working in Ford and I also worked in Ferrari, I can distinguish a good technical solution for a not too good one, if you think it's "hilarious" perhaps it's better for you to go and take a MSc and then work as design engineer for 10 years in the automotive and aerospace industry.😀

Regarding my "solipstic world", actually perhaps you lost the memo that I'm a Leica owner (not a Kiev/Contax one, even if I see one of these cameras in my future) and I collect old film camera because yes, I live a little bit in the past and there is nothing wrong with that, all I wanted to point out is that:

1) Until the 60s all the big brands were in the rangefinder market, there was a fierce competition and a quick development of the technology, so in those days the photographer had more choices than today.

2) Where we are today in the other side the rangefinder market has shrinked so much that it's not perceived as lucrative enough for the Big Names to justify R&D expenses, money that can be focused in their core business, so in 2013 Leica is the only name for GOOD RFs, even if they sell it as luxury items to appear more than to be.

I think that these two statements can be agreed without any problem by most of us, then if you don't it's not my problem.. . .

(1) Learn to read more carefully: "I don't want/own/use digital Leicas," (emphasis added to help you)

(2) Do not pretend that having an MSc and design experience in a completely different area is of any relevance whatsoever. Arguments from authority are dubious at the best of times. They are even more dubious when you don't actually have any authority.

(3) If it's not your problem, why do you keep advancing feeble, fallacious or simply irrelevant arguments in an attempt to bolster your untenable position? For that matter, what on earth is your reason for calling me "Leica man" and accusing me of being asleep? I'm the one that's awake and open to what actually exists. You're the one who is dreaming of how you think the world ought to be. Unfortunately for you, the world refuses to fit your fantasies. I'd say that was your problem, and quite a big one at that.

Cheers,

Roger.

 

[icebear]

...
Machines do what you tell them to which is not necessarily what you want them to do. System knowledge is paramount. ..

Ha ha ha, that's exactely what I don't want to spent much time on. I do not want to learn how to program a camera after studying 300 pages of a manual that some software guy wrote and a low wage secretary 90% google translated into another language.

I want a tool that does what I want, when I want it. This is exactly what I expect from a camera. I want to be responsible for the result because I made the decision where to meter, how to correct if necessary and where to put my focus and which aperture to use.

I don't want to have to figure out how to override the camera to deviate from the "got it right 95% of the time" 12 scene auto mode.

If someone takes great pictures with a camera loaded with high tech. and programmed* to his/her liking that's totally fine but it's just not for me 😎 😛 😀.

* After the latest firmware update most likely all these precious settings will be gone anyway.

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . I do not want to learn how to program a camera after studying 300 pages of a manual that some software guy wrote and a low wage secretary 90% google translated into another language.

I want a tool that does what I want, when I want it. This is exactly what I expect from a camera. I want to be responsible for the result because I made the decision where to meter, how to correct if necessary and where to put my focus and which aperture to use.

I don't want to have to figure out how to override the camera to deviate from the "got it right 95% of the time" 12 scene auto mode. . . .

Dear Klaus,

Same here!

Cheers,

R.

 

[icebear]

Come on Klaus, I use one point AF and focus and recompose just like I do with a RF. It's the same result.

John, that's totally fine with me.
As long as you enjoy the experience and are happy with the result, just enjoy 😉.
Other people, other tools.

 

[semordnilap]

Sorry, didn't read all the pages in the middle, so I don't know if this has been mentioned already.

I expect Leica is happy with all of the mirrorless offerings. They've positioned themselves so well as a luxury/status item that they'll keep selling as many cameras as they can make, and now they have market for their lenses that's growing faster than it would be without the other bodies out there.

There are certainly a wealth of options... Just wish a cheaper, slightly smaller, proper rf were one of them!

 

[uhoh7]

Zeiss:We are currently working on manual focus lenses for these new full-frame CSCs. They will have an interface to provide EXIF data to the camera. They are expected to be in stores by the end of 2014. However, we cannot provide any additional infos right now.

One lens (AF) which is already built is the 35/2.8 sonnar

 

[dmc]

(1) Learn to read more carefully: "I don't want/own/use digital Leicas," (emphasis added to help you)

(2) Do not pretend that having an MSc and design experience in a completely different area is of any relevance whatsoever. Arguments from authority are dubious at the best of times. They are even more dubious when you don't actually have any authority.

(3) If it's not your problem, why do you keep advancing feeble, fallacious or simply irrelevant arguments in an attempt to bolster your untenable position? For that matter, what on earth is your reason for calling me "Leica man" and accusing me of being asleep? I'm the one that's awake and open to what actually exists. You're the one who is dreaming of how you think the world ought to be. Unfortunately for you, the world refuses to fit your fantasies. I'd say that was your problem, and quite a big one at that.

Cheers,

Roger.

Roger Hicks, well said my friend🙂

 

[DougFord]

Eleven pages and counting, just in this thread alone.
No, I can not imagine why blog writers would ever use the term 'Leica killer'. 🙄

 

[hausen]

Roger Hicks, well said my friend🙂

I am not sure. Seems like a personal attack to me. Think a deep breath is in order, if you feel the Leica Digital offering suits you then that is right for you, if the Sony offering meets you needs then that is equally good. I think it is great that we all don't want the same system and that other companies rather than just Leica can develop a FF mirror less system.

 

[icebear]

Manual focus, auto focus, they're just different. But let's clarify something.

Lots of us are out there doing it with AF - rocking it and not having problems despite not having really read the manual.

I'll say it again, pro-level stuff works really well. People who make blanket statements like some of the above about AF and associated "300-page" manuals either have never used pro-quality gear or are klutzes. ... But don't try to tell me that you use MF because AF systems are generally inherently inferior, or "decide for themselves" or some other trope. It only reveals intellectual laziness.

It remains a preference. That speaks to individuals. Generalizations do not apply.

One of these days? I feel for you.😎
Let one individual point you to the following pdf manuals (English version for that matter) for a
Nikon D800 (472pages) :
http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/dslr/D800_EN.pdf
Nikon D3 (just by chance also 472 pages)
http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/kie88335f7869dfuejdl=-cww2/D3_en.pdf

and Canon 1D Mk IV (only 276 pages 😉):
http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/1/0300002961/01/eos1dmkiv-im-en-02.pdf

and Sony A99 (also a mere 245 pages)
https://docs.sony.com/release/SLT-A99_A99V_handbook.pdf

I am not sure which of these AF cameras does qualify in your book as pro level, you can show other examples of your liking.
My 300 pages was just a ball park number but heck I guess I am not too far off.😀

If you interpret my statements from post #246 (have a look if you care) as the attempt to tell anybody - especially you that whatever equipment you prefer is inferior, then I assume you often in your life have experienced mild misunderstandings with people around you and this might not be because the others are intellectually lazy🙄.

Enjoy your equipment, I enjoy mine.
As you stated yourself it remains a preference, a personal one I may add.

 

[uhoh7]

The great focusing controversies are layered. AF v MF is huge, obviously. AF marked the end of the romantic era. Like when fighter aircraft moved to AA missiles, with increasingly advanced guidance systems.

Next we have RF vs SLR vs EVF. Since prisms don't apply in the current context (A7r aka Leica Killer) Let's call it RF vs EVF.

I can hear the blood pressure going way up already 🙂

It's only in the last 2 years this could be a serious comparison, and if you have not looked through a nex EVF or an OM-D EVF, you really have no idea on the current level of EVFs.

For a monster corp making everything, Sony has gone to pretty big pains to make manual focus on the Nex system fast and accurate.

The EVFs are super sharp, show DOF as it will appear in the image, magnify to any area of the image, and offer nine flavors of focus peaking.

RFs I think are way cool (i own three) but I'm used to Nex, and can focus just as fast with them.

But no way to overestimate the RF nostalgia here. Its a badge of honor, and loyalty is very very high.

The view through glass is organic, while view into TV is electronic, no way around it.

Let's forget about Sony and Leica for a sec. You have a choice between two cameras. They will use the same lens. Camera A has a rangefinder good as any today. Camera B has a very very good EVF, which with practice can focus as fast. Camera B image quality is 10% better.

Which do you want?

If your answer is A, what % superior image quality would it take to make you choose B?

 

[uhoh7]

The one that you like working with best... And that, I believe, is your point, no?

For myself 10% is enough to tip the scales either way (assuming form factor is close, and cost comparable)