Why the obsession with "Leica Killers?"

[Roger Hicks]

Well, maybe I sounded a bit denial in my earlier post. I'm torn between old and new - I kind of wonder about fact that mechanical rangefinder has survived so long and even has found it's [probably last] home in a digital camera, at same time I greet it as I like it for it's simplicity and ease of use. It's like an old dinosaur or last Apache - world has moved on but there's the last creature, last from the breed. I can't think of many areas where something haven't changed for so long time....probably except wheel 🙂 despite that tire technologies change over time. . . .

Most things on a bicycle. Most firearms. Mechanical watches. Penknives. Gas stoves. Toasters. Enlargers. Record decks (for vinyl). Sewing machines. Air compressors. Pressure cookers. Wheelbarrows. Watering cans. Cheese graters. Refrigerators. Hair dryers. Electric drills. That's just a very quick list from the things my wife and I actually own. Add in Cona coffee makers; safety razors; lathes...

Overall, more things have survived with very little change than have been radically revised. Many of them are so simple, and reached their peak of perfection so long ago, that we no longer even notice them. Axes or hammers and chisels, for example. Yes, you can buy hydraulic log splitters and pneumatic drills but I bet there are a lot more axes, hammers and chisels in use than hydraulic log splitters and pneumatic drills.

Cheers,

R.

 

[doolittle]

Nope. I want something lighter, smaller, with a superior sensor, and — ideally — with in-body IS. The digital Ms are bloated overpriced skeuomorphic anachronisms. Pretend 1954 film cameras with digital sensors.

I can't see what's skeumorphic on digital Ms, besides maybe the battery/sd card cover.

Why would a digital rangefinder have to be radically different from an analog rangefinder, especially when you are incorporating an optical viewfinder, the same lens mount and remaining compatible with existing lenses. You still have a sensor to incorporate which occupies the same size and position as analog film. True, you don't have a film cartridge, but you do have a larger battery to incorporate.

Maybe I lack imagination, but I can't see how you could or would wan't to change that.

 

[btgc]

Most things on a bicycle. Most firearms. Mechanical watches. Penknives. Gas stoves. Toasters. Enlargers. Record decks (for vinyl). Sewing machines. Air compressors. Pressure cookers. Wheelbarrows. Watering cans. Cheese graters. Refrigerators. Hair dryers. Electric drills. That's just a very quick list from the things my wife and I actually own. Add in Cona coffee makers; safety razors; lathes...

Yes and no...last weekend when I rode on my 10 years old MTB over autumn city hills, I said to myself how much I welcome this invention - I mean, stronger wheels, fatter tires and amazing speed mechanism. This is not what my grandma or dad used, they had to push bicycle on the hill if it were too steep. And I don't have to watch every bump or stone to keep wheels from warping.

All this thing you mention just seem to be same as 50 years ago, in fact, they are different - some by better materials and technology (hair dryers, gas stoves, refrigerators, electric drills...) and some rely on slightly or very different principles (television, recording/playback devices - I mean all that is digital now).

 

[jsrockit]

judging by the M8, digital leicas don't hold value very well.
digital sensor lifecycle is about a year or two?
Lenses hold up value a lot better.

Let's remember that the M8 is from 2006... it's doing pretty well vs. other cameras from 2006.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Yes and no...last weekend when I rode on my 10 years old MTB over autumn city hills, I said to myself how much I welcome this invention - I mean, stronger wheels, fatter tires and amazing speed mechanism. This is not what my grandma or dad used, they had to push bicycle on the hill if it were too steep. And I don't have to watch every bump or stone to keep wheels from warping.

All this thing you mention just seem to be same as 50 years ago, in fact, they are different - some by better materials and technology (hair dryers, gas stoves, refrigerators, electric drills...) and some rely on slightly or very different principles (television, recording/playback devices - I mean all that is digital now).

Bicycles: No. All-terrain bikes are merely one kind of specialized bicycle, and a type which grew out of a synthesis of much older bicycle technologies: fat-tyred, thick-rimmed Schwinns and derailleur gears from the early 20th century. John Finlay Scott put the two together in the same year the M3 was introduced, 1953.

Where are the better materials and technology in a gas stove? Likewise a hair dryer: a fan and a heating element. And although a refrigerator may have better door seals now, and use a less environmentally unfriendly refrigerant, those are about the only differences. It's still exactly the same technology.

You will notice that I took care not to refer to televisions, music players, etc., precisely because they do not use the technologies of 50 or 100 years ago.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Lss]

Let's remember that the M8 is from 2006... it's doing pretty well vs. other cameras from 2006.

And not just in terms of resale value. I am thinking about the new Sony as a secondary camera while keeping the M8 as my main camera.

 

[Highway 61]

"Leica killers" are pure consumers fantasms.

No serious camera companies will try to kill Leica ever.
Why ? Just because most of their high-end line products customers are people wanting a Leica but not being able to afford it.

This is a basic marketing rule marketing students learn at school. To massively sell a product, include "something" made by the competition in what you want to sell...
Even if that "something" is a dream.

The more expensive, nice and performing Leica products will be, the more Sony, Nikon and Canon things will sell...
If Leica was to go to bankrupt, this would be a tragedy for the whole cameras market, not only for Leica people.

Fortunately, this doesn't seem to be a great risk for now.

 

[pepeguitarra]

I don't think anything will kill Leica..

Agree! Agree!

 

[Scrambler]

Why is it amazing? Once something works, it works. Change for the sake of change is like asking why bicycles have only two wheels and chain drive, instead of three wheels or shaft drive. Or why bicycles still exist now that we have motor-cars.

Cheers,

R.

The design of a single-speed chain-drive bicycle is virtually unchanged for well over a century. It was regarded as a fad in the late 19th century: it's been a long fad...

But I can tell you why bicycles have two wheels and not three. Given your usual precision use of language, Roger, I'm a little disappointed with the analogy. ;-)

 

[Lss]

But I can tell you why bicycles have two wheels and not three. Given your usual precision use of language, Roger, I'm a little disappointed with the analogy. ;-)

Why a rangefinder camera still has a rangefinder? 😛

 

[NazgulKing]

Agree! Agree!

I will only agree only if Leica does something to improve the rangefinder.

 

[btgc]

Bicycles: No. All-terrain bikes are merely one kind of specialized bicycle, and a type which grew out of a synthesis of much older bicycle technologies: fat-tyred, thick-rimmed Schwinns and derailleur gears from the early 20th century. John Finlay Scott put the two together in the same year the M3 was introduced, 1953.

Where are the better materials and technology in a gas stove? Likewise a hair dryer: a fan and a heating element. And although a refrigerator may have better door seals now, and use a less environmentally unfriendly refrigerant, those are about the only differences. It's still exactly the same technology.

Roger, thank you on educating me on John Finlay Scott even if it weren't exactly mass product, I didn't know that.

Hair dryer 40 years ago did mean a helmet on stand and seat below it, at least here. For me it's like heavy permanently tripod mounted camera with one speed and two aperture vs SLR of end of 80ies which does everything I need. Later there were ones with unreliable motors and weak heaters, and only after then there were proper ones.

While different gas in refrigerator may seem to be minor change, I think it's important update, same as insulation materials used (still remember THAT feeling from glass wool!). But something also has gone back - while I like unit not needing manual de-icing, it has weak hinges not keeping loaded door tightly closed and everything is as cheaply made as it can be. And we are talking about one of major brands. So in some sense I should correct myself - while technologies may seem to advancing, things don't always fully follow the technology. Or, if they'd be made like things, they would, but as this are a products, they aren't as sturdy as a things.

 

[burancap]

Not sure if this has any value in this discussion, but I always liked it.

Quoted (from memory) from a motorcycle magazine in the early 90's when Ducati was in a bit of a resurgence...

The Japanese manufacturers would never build a Ducati, because they can't build a Ducati. All of their engineering and accounting committees would dissect it, redesign it, make it economic to manufacture, make it more reliable, make it "better." They would end up with a motorcycle vastly superior in every regard to a Ducati but no where near as good... in all of their improving, they would have removed its soul.

 

[David_Manning]

I'm not really sure anyone wants to kill Leica off. Leica has traditionally been a high-water mark for cameras, lenses, and serious-minded photographers...people who helped elevate photography from a craft to an art. So there is serious artistic cachet involved with the Leica marque.

It's been mentioned before...it's a form of optimistic flattery to compare a product to an icon. Leica is iconic (just like iPhones and iPads are, like it or not). There will always be comparisons to icons, in the hopes that a particular product has a chance of attaining iconic status itself.

D600 killer, or Camaro Z28 killer, doesn't seem to fit the mold, in my mind.

 

[jsrockit]

Not sure if this has any value in this discussion, but I always liked it.

Quoted (from memory) from a motorcycle magazine in the early 90's when Ducati was in a bit of a resurgence...

The Japanese manufacturers would never build a Ducati, because they can't build a Ducati. All of their engineering and accounting committees would dissect it, redesign it, make it economic to manufacture, make it more reliable, make it "better." They would end up with a motorcycle vastly superior in every regard to a Ducati but no where near as good... in all of their improving, they would have removed its soul.

I can see some worth in that.

 

[jsrockit]

It's been mentioned before...it's a form of optimistic flattery to compare a product to an icon. Leica is iconic (just like iPhones and iPads are, like it or not). There will always be comparisons to icons, in the hopes that a particular product has a chance of attaining iconic status itself.

While I get what you are saying David, do we really think the Leica is iconic just like the iPad / iPhone? These are mainstream products that are ubiquitous. I can bring a Leica to my job and only two or three people (out of 100) have even heard of Leica.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The design of a single-speed chain-drive bicycle is virtually unchanged for well over a century. It was regarded as a fad in the late 19th century: it's been a long fad...

But I can tell you why bicycles have two wheels and not three. Given your usual precision use of language, Roger, I'm a little disappointed with the analogy. ;-)

That was actually precisely the point: as Lss says, it's like asking why a rangefinder camera still has a rangefinder.

Cheers,

R.

 

[David_Manning]

John, given that Leicas aren't household appliances, you're right of course. But I'm speaking generally...and in terms of serious- or hobby-photographers (the intended market, I'm sure), there are very few who aren't familiar with Leica.

So, how about, "Leica is an iconic camera brand?"

 

[Roger Hicks]

. . . Hair dryer 40 years ago did mean a helmet on stand and seat below it, at least here. . . .

But not in Australia: http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=248815 -- as far as I can see, the hood dryer came out after the hand dryer. Certainly, I saw a hand-held dryer that cannot have come from later than the 1950s a few months ago at a vide-grenier

Saying that insulation is a fundamental technical change is about on a par with saying that when Leica started coating their viewfinder optics, it was a fundamental technical change. Both are incremental improvements in an existing technology.

I completely agree about "de-speccing", though.

Cheers,

R.

 

[jsrockit]

So, how about, "Leica is an iconic camera brand?"

There we go!