Why the obsession with "Leica Killers?"

[Roger Hicks]

Simple: Two or three grand for a lens or a (film) camera body that will hold its resale value for a decade or more is a reasonable value proposition, but it is the height of absurdity to pay seven large for a camera whose electronics will be obsolete in 2-3 years. It's just freaking preposterous.

Funny: my M9 is now 4 years old and still takes pictures just as well it did in 2009. What on earth do you mean by "obsolete"?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Richard C]

I thought this was going to be about something that makes modern a digital Leica pack up after a thousand shots or so and leaves the owner with something that is unrepairable.

 

[jsrockit]

Simple: Two or three grand for a lens or a (film) camera body that will hold its resale value after a decade or more of use is a reasonable value proposition, but it is the height of absurdity to pay seven large for a camera whose electronics will be obsolete in 2-3 years. It's just freaking preposterous.

Put slightly differently: paying that kind of premium for top quality makes sense for durable goods, but not so much for consumables. And digital camera bodies are consumables.

I agree, but I make regular money. Many people make a lot more. One man's $7000 is another man's $3,000, is another man's $500, etc.

I would assume the M240 will hold its value longer than the Sony as well.

 

[danielsterno]

Speaking of the term Leica Killer, here is a write up titled one of the same on the new up coming Sony A7 and A7R FF, 24 MP A7 has a 24MP sensor with phase detection AF, the A7R has 36MP with no PDAF and no anti-aliasing filter. In other words: paired with the right glass you’ll get a quality that’s about to match medium format. In a compact package. For not even $2k the A7 kit and $2.2k the A7R body only.
This should be in its own thread….
Your Thoughts?

http://www.the.me/leica-killer-and-...full-frame-interchangeable-lens-cameras-mean/

 

[Wburgess]

I don't think anything will kill Leica....

But something might make the fanatics bubble burst...

 

[Roger Hicks]

Speaking of the term Leica Killer, here is a write up titled one of the same on the new up coming Sony A7 and A7R FF, 24 MP A7 has a 24MP sensor with phase detection AF, the A7R has 36MP with no PDAF and no anti-aliasing filter. In other words: paired with the right glass you’ll get a quality that’s about to match medium format. In a compact package. For not even $2k the A7 kit and $2.2k the A7R body only.
This should be in its own thread….
Your Thoughts?

http://www.the.me/leica-killer-and-...full-frame-interchangeable-lens-cameras-mean/

Put a decent viewfinder on it and it would probably be quite a nice camera. But the only person who would call it a "Leica killer" is someone who doesn't like or has never used a Leica.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ronald M]

You know I think its statement that has many meaning.

First, I think people say Leica killer to acknowledge the quality produced by the system and insinuate that a Leica killer is a camera that approaches the IQ of the Leica system while being considerably cheaper and possessing a similar form factor. It produced the first full frame "mirrorless" camera, and this genre of camera seems to be the one type the interwebs wants more than anything. (Let's see if people put their money where their mouth is)

Its same with Corvette and GT-R fans. They call those cars Ferrari killers because they offer similar performance for a fraction of the cost, and in some categories outperform a ferrari. However, journalist invariably write about the experience of driving a Ferrari, and invariably a corvette and GT-R do not provide the same experience.

Leica sells an experience too. The rangefinder experience. The mystique of Henri Cartier Bresson and others.

Second, it seems that people show real animosity towards Leica products due to the cost of the system and the "collectible" variants that are released for princely sums. Lets admit that Leica has a mystique about its name, and it is a name that every hobbyist will eventually learn; upon learning of the Leica name they learn about the Leica price. This leads to bitterness and envy because the price of admission is way too high. Furthermore, Leica has moved to positioning itself as a luxury brand; all luxury brands are envied by many common people (people have shot each other over starter jackets). Its natural to see how the animosity towards Leica forms in the collective voice of the interwebs because Leica has positioned itself in the "if you gotta ask, you can't afford it" realm of the market.

People want the best, but when the best prices itself exorbitantly above the rest, people will clamor for a "killer" to dethrone the king and give access to best.

I can only compare it to the cost of cars. 1965 Impala SS $2800. Current 35,000. Roughly a factor of 10.

1965 M3 + lens as around $500/550. M + Summicron is $9000. factor of 18. I would say they have gone excessive.

One must consider two other things to make a fair comparison. Value of our money compared to German, first marks then euro. Second realize Americans on average have seen no increase in purchasing power for 30 years. The 1% have no such problem, in fact their standard of living and income is booming. USA has by a very wide margin the widest disparity of income of any developed nation in the world. So unless you are part of the 1%, things do not look good.

Now consider Leica no longer sells as much to pros because of the changing nature of their work, they have to promote to the wealthy.
The Kaufmann family did not get to be billionaires by being kindly.

 

[Wburgess]

But the only person who would call it a "Leica killer" is someone who doesn't like or has never used a Leica.

Isn't that a bit of a sweeping statement?

I love Leica cameras, but understand their flaws and other cameras advantages.

Love is most definitely blind.

 

[noisycheese]

I don't think anything will kill Leica...

Only Leica can kill Leica.

We almost witnessed Leica's self-inflicted demise not too many years ago.
Hopefully Leica as a corporation has learned from its past mistakes and will not be doomed to repeat that bit of history.

 

[jsrockit]

Isn't that a bit of a sweeping statement?

Sure, but I bet the reason most people like M bodies is because of the mechanical rangefinder... so there is some truth to it.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Isn't that a bit of a sweeping statement?
. . . .

Not really. As jsrockit points out, the reason most people like M bodies must be because of the mechanical rangefinder -- or at the very least, a good optical viewfinder. Without the latter, any talk of a "Leica killer" is completely missing the point.

Note that I didn't say that no camera could ever be a "Leica killer": just that the only people who could begin to pretend the camera illustrated might have the slightest hope of being a "Leica killer" are those who don't like or have never used a Leica. Could it exist alongside a Leica? Of course: lots of cameras do. Many outsell Leica. But "kill" the Leica M? No, that's simply risible.

Cheers,

R.

 

[daveleo]

What is with every rumor site and spec chaser calling every mirrorless camera that hasn't been released yet a "Leica Killer?"
. . . . .

It's just web-writing hyperbole that resonates because it's what a lot of camera review readers want to hear (that they can, in these digital times, do better than buying Leica ).

On the other hand . . . . it's true ! - for most everyone buying a new camera these days (and reading those dramatized reviews), they can get more "nice pictures / $$$" by buying any one the (many many) Leica killers on sale - thus this new gizmo is a Leica killer.

Will Leica crash from this? I doubt it. They will just fly above the clouds as high as necessary.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It's just web-writing hyperbole. . .

Exactly. A medium in which "hate" is used as a synonym for "mild dislike" and "love" is used as a synonym for "quite like" is not one in which one needs to pay much attention to semantic niceties. Nor indeed is it a medium where one invariably has high hopes of intelligent discourse.

Cheers,

R.

 

[helen.HH]

I am sooo glad I no longer surf the web as much
And get Tangled up in all that useless politics about gear

As for Leica holding its Value
I am not so sure anymore.... Lots of people have gone digital
There is a flood of Film bodies & lenses
Used Leica prices to my eye are dropping

 

[jsrockit]

As for Leica holding its Value
I am not so sure anymore.... Lots of people have gone digital
There is a flood of Film bodies & lenses
Used Leica prices to my eye are dropping

I meant digital Leicas.

 

[Bille]

But Leica was always a luxury brand.

I dont think so. You could get a 50/2 Summicron at the price of a Canon FD 50/1.4. Or a Noctilux for a little more than the Canon FD 50/1.2 L. How much is a Canon EF 50/1.2 L today and how much is a current Noct?

(I have the 1980s price lists here somewhere...)

Also see this thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100079

 

[Ranchu]

A 35mm f2 Leica lens is what? 2 grand used? That's why, it's not an obsession, people are thinking that at some point the difference between a 1000 dollar panasonic and an 8000 dollar leica won't amount to much besides the 7 grand.

 

[Pioneer]

I dont think so. You could get a 50/2 Summicron at the price of a Canon FD 50/1.4. Or a Noctilux for a little more than the Canon FD 50/1.2 L. How much is a Canon EF 50/1.2 L today and how much is a current Noct?

Not so sure that is a good comparison. Based on Canon's marketshare I wouldn't be surprised to find they sell more 50/1.2L lenses in a year then all the lenses sold by Leica in a year.

Besides, I certainly can't say for certain, but having owned that Canon lens I suspect the build quality of the Noct, not to mention the image quality, is in a totally different league. I might try renting a Noct one day just to say I have used one. 🙂

 

[Roger Hicks]

A 35mm f2 Leica lens is what? 2 grand used? That's why, it's not an obsession, people are thinking that at some point the difference between a 1000 dollar panasonic and an 8000 dollar leica won't amount to much besides the 7 grand.

Well, that and full frame and rangefinder focusing and a decent viewfinder...

Cheers,

R.

 

[faris]

A Leica experience is a sum of its parts..the whole.

Might be copied, but never excelled for those to whom the totality of the pleasure is very high.

Wishful thinking..one always tries to equal the best.