migtex
Don't eXchange Freedom!
I own a 21 and 28 CV' on S mount.. and I plan to get the 25 too. They are the best for the buck! And more....
Still, I do believe that Leica will be around longer if and only if they reduce the price on lens and cameras... unless they do that, make them more afordable for more people (hence doing more money) they will cornered by themeselfs... this (RF) is already a small market, make it more expensive does not solve the problem (being out of it...)...
OTOH.. Cosina is making a great buck... a good for them and for us too!
Still, I do believe that Leica will be around longer if and only if they reduce the price on lens and cameras... unless they do that, make them more afordable for more people (hence doing more money) they will cornered by themeselfs... this (RF) is already a small market, make it more expensive does not solve the problem (being out of it...)...
OTOH.. Cosina is making a great buck... a good for them and for us too!
tightsqueez
Well-known
The thread asks why I wouldn't buy VC. The reason stated above is my opionion about the subject and that's that. Having put myself through college, I found ways to save money and make things meet. True, Leica optics are very expensive, but I have used those ways to save money today and purchase Leica exclusively. Right here, right now...I'm glad I have done so.
Speaking of Kool Aid, I'll have one right now because if I remember correctly, YOU wildwildwes helped pay for those lenses. Cheers to you.
Speaking of Kool Aid, I'll have one right now because if I remember correctly, YOU wildwildwes helped pay for those lenses. Cheers to you.
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
Hey, I love my CV glass, and the price of new leica glass is just too much. I would love to support the company but I can't pay those prices 90% of the time.
If leica is in as much trouble as people say they are then I can't see the constant price hikes being logical, but what do I know?
If leica is in as much trouble as people say they are then I can't see the constant price hikes being logical, but what do I know?
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
There are company's out there that it works for. If it works for Leica, well good for them, they're in the buisness to make money.
And I'm also not in their target market, O well, maybe next year.
And I'm also not in their target market, O well, maybe next year.
Finder
Veteran
The price increase for Leica does make sense - they cannot sell at a loss. At least if they want to stay in business. It is NOT greed. Leica lenses cost more than CV because they costs more to make. Right now, it is a buyer's market for photo gear.
I will bite the bullet and buy Leica when only their product offers the mix of attributes I'm looking for (and it's important enough to pay for). I'm patient by economic concern, and eventually find a way forward at lower cost. I certainly have no comment on Leica list pricing as that's their concern, while mine is to seek out the lowest possible price and either buy or not.
At the same time I have no reason NOT to buy Voigtlander or Zeiss when it makes sense, and have done so.
At the same time I have no reason NOT to buy Voigtlander or Zeiss when it makes sense, and have done so.
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Paul T.
Veteran
I would accept your logic on the other arguments more easily if you didn't persist with one that is so obviously wrong.
Leica microsystems, geosystems and camera are all separate entities. The camera business has no connection with the others apart from the name and logo, which was sold by the Leitz family a decade ago. This is well known. They might have some shareholders in common, I haven't checked, but Leica cameras are an entirely separate business in terms of both ownership and management. Your bluster about "all the products are branded as Leica and sold through Leica distribution channels" is just that. Bluster. Your basic argument stated above, that Leica can afford lower margins on the cameras because they are making plenty of money elsewhere, that they are "not suffering", is patently rubbish.
And as for the price rises, blame your president! Nearly half my income arrives in dollars, and I'm far more annoyed with your currency, which is tanking, than I am with a german camera company.
Leica microsystems, geosystems and camera are all separate entities. The camera business has no connection with the others apart from the name and logo, which was sold by the Leitz family a decade ago. This is well known. They might have some shareholders in common, I haven't checked, but Leica cameras are an entirely separate business in terms of both ownership and management. Your bluster about "all the products are branded as Leica and sold through Leica distribution channels" is just that. Bluster. Your basic argument stated above, that Leica can afford lower margins on the cameras because they are making plenty of money elsewhere, that they are "not suffering", is patently rubbish.
And as for the price rises, blame your president! Nearly half my income arrives in dollars, and I'm far more annoyed with your currency, which is tanking, than I am with a german camera company.
Sparrow
Veteran
Paul T. said:
However; I have for some years wondered why when Cosina’s and Leica’s costs must be very similar the selling price should be so different, in whatever currency
tightsqueez
Well-known
Wow. Sitting here in Iraq...I just wanted to let you guys know that you provide me with plenty of humor. I love it. How is the weather back home? Chance of mortars and scattered VBIEDs here, same as usual.
Oh yeah, does VC offer 3 year Passport Warranties, as I have had to use mine with the war-breakage going on over here during my first deployment. Another vote for Leica huh? Seriously though...how is the weather?
Oh yeah, does VC offer 3 year Passport Warranties, as I have had to use mine with the war-breakage going on over here during my first deployment. Another vote for Leica huh? Seriously though...how is the weather?
T
tedwhite
Guest
Tightsqueez, the weather's fine over here. Actually, wherever we are when nobody's shooting at us, the weather's always better.
90 degrees here on the Arizona/Mexico border. But then it rained and dropped the temp down to 68 degrees,
You could find out about the passport warranties by asking Stephen Gandy at Cameraquest. He should know.
God bless you, and I hope you get to come home soon.
90 degrees here on the Arizona/Mexico border. But then it rained and dropped the temp down to 68 degrees,
You could find out about the passport warranties by asking Stephen Gandy at Cameraquest. He should know.
God bless you, and I hope you get to come home soon.
GrahamWelland
Well-known
tightsqueez said:
I think we're all fortunate that we're not in your situation - keep your head down and be safe!
IMHO, IF I we're sitting in a trench keeping my head down, which thankfully I'm not, I know which brand I'd reach for ... (and yes, I do realise I could buy a VC lens and and an additional 5-10 spares for the same money!).
GrahamWelland
Well-known
rxmd said:One should notice that the $143M is turnover (and actually for the 06/07 fiscal year it isn't $143M, but €146M, or close to $190M according to their press release). That says nothing about the health of the company; I can sell $1 notes for 50 cents each with great turnover, but that doesn't make it a great business
....
Maybe for the 2006/07 fiscal year it hasn't been for the first time in years. It's still a company under constant pressure with little leeway.
Philipp
That's absolutely right! A profit margin of 0.34% on $190m sales is NOT the sign of a successful company! It certainly beats making a loss, but not by much. Now if we were talking 20-30% profit margin then maybe the talk of hugely inflated prices and price gouging might be justified but I don't think that it is.
I'm not convinced that Leica's best served by going the route of selling a greater volume of cheaper lenses is necessarily going to be better for the bottom line either. If you reduce the manufacturing/QC costs and the overall quality drops then it's going to be much worse for the brand than maintaining lower volume, high cost, higher margin business. Everything I've seen and heard about Leica at the moment suggests that they're producing just about the maximum volume of new lenses they can at the moment whilst maintaining their internal QC and production best practices. You can't just ramp up production with a small company with limited number of highly skilled workers without giving up something. I would note also that they're selling every single lens that they can make, even at $1500 - $5500 a copy!
I think that wildwildwes's view of turnover as an indicator of success is obviously based on believing too many late night telemarketing scheme advertisements. (turnover does not equal income folks!).
And for all those folks bitching about Leica prices, the solution is VERY SIMPLE, vote with your wallet and buy VC/Zeiss lenses. Leica'll do just fine without you I suspect. The VC lens quality is excellent and there's no reason not to. I have a mix of Leica and VC/Zeiss glass and and I like them all - I confess that my most used lenses are the few Leica lenses but there's not a bad lens out of all of them. :angel:
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AlexanderR
Established
I just wish there were more M-mount options for the CV lenses. I'm not a fan of the adaptor. They should sell their lenses in either M or screw mount.
Finder
Veteran
Sparrow said:
They are vastly different companies in vastly different situations. Leica does not make and market two bodies and a small line of lenses produced in Japan by a relatively small manufacturer that is also getting income from its own line of cameras. I am not sure all the R&D for Zeiss is done in Germany. Certainly they are not the same size. None of us know the production processes schedules of the companies and a difference there can add significant costs.
Having had direct experience in photographic equipment manufacturing, Leica lives on the edge. This is well know within the industry. Gross sales nor the increase in gross sales indicates the health of a company. Leica is not in the position to to place huge markups on their products - no camera manufacturer is. The price is reasonable for the product. Lowering the price will not increase sales for this kind of equipment simply because the customer base is not there - a simple P&S compact digital camera may benefit from this stategy, but not a high-end rangefinder.
Leica equipment IS expensive to make and the price reflects that. Don't blame Leica if you can't afford it or are unwilling to pay for it.
Sparrow
Veteran
Finder said:
I’m sorry but you can’t state that “None of us know the production processes” as a way to support “Leica equipment IS expensive to make”
GM and Toyota are in relatively similar positions yet there is not the same price difference
Finder
Veteran
Sparrow said:
How much tooling did each company need to do to make their lines. Are they simply taking existing lenses and and repackaging them? Are they also makiing the optics from scratch? Do they have the same finish? (Just because it is black does not make it the same black.) What other difference in mechanical and optical design are there? Where is production? How extensive is quality control? What are the tolerances? What are R&D costs? How much waste is in production? How long is the production schedule? How long does it take from setting up the production lines to shipping products does it take and what number of products need to be distributed in that time? What materials are they using? How many units are they producing and how long will a production run be in stock? How is the distribution done? Do they need to produce retail stock and for how many outlets? How many employees are involved in the process? What are the packaging and shipping cost? What are their marketing costs? What are their service cost and what are the percentage for returns, demos, and samples? How long do you support a product? How much company infrastructure do sales have to support?
These are a few thing to think about. If you can answer these questions, we may be in a position to know why these product lines are priced differently. I would imagine that you would find out that Leica costs are higher.
Having never been in automobile manufacturing, I am not sure car prices would be a valid comparison. I would think a GM/Toyota comparison could only work for a Nikon/Canon comparisons as the relative scale would be the same.
Sparrow
Veteran
Finder said:
I am familiar with the way the cost of manufactured goods is arrived at, by the way you forgot to mention the fixed costs, plant amortisation and interest costs and the like: I obviously am not privy to any of that information, I just find it odd the selling price is so different when the products are so similar; you clearly don’t we simply hold different opinions
PS GM and Land Rover may have been a better example, sorry
Joop van Heijgen
Established
It is a good thing that there are always customers who want to buy new Leica products!
Without them it is for most people impossible to buy 'second hand' cameras and lenses of Leica.
In Holland you can buy now second hand a M 6 for €695, and a R 8 for €600,-
The Leica factory once said 'we would that we could make second hand cameras'!
Without them it is for most people impossible to buy 'second hand' cameras and lenses of Leica.
In Holland you can buy now second hand a M 6 for €695, and a R 8 for €600,-
The Leica factory once said 'we would that we could make second hand cameras'!
Finder
Veteran
Wes, you are pointing out many things except that they don't indicate the health of the company. Check the financial records for Konica Minolta Photo Imaging before they were shut down and you will see a company that had large gross sale, a large product line, and a large number of employees who recieved their salaries. Your claim that Leica markets themself as a mom and pop company that hand polishes their optics is false - I have never seen that and worked in the industry.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Well, it is true, for example, that they offer guided tours of their factory in Solms where apparently some emphasis is made on manual aspects of labour and individual, "handicrafts"-type mode of production. (Disclaimer: I haven't been doing one myself, but discussed extensively with people who have.)Finder said:
So even though they may not market themselves as such a company deliberately, I guess they aren't exactly unhappy if that kind of association crops up.
Philipp