Sonnar2
Well-known
Not be that nasty and wrong to a camera that saved lots of Leica business. 🙂
Wishes to LEICA: What camera you would buy NEW if exists
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Calzone
Gear Whore #1
M-EVF
https://leicarumors.com/2019/05/06/the-latest-leica-rumors-sl2-m10x-m-with-evf-apo
Text suggests 24 MP similar to M240. "Alternative to M10."
https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/very-interesting-hints-about-future-leica-products.
Take note of the spread in the dates of these rumors. Also know that rumors that make it to RFF tend to be true or become true.
Cal
https://leicarumors.com/2019/05/06/the-latest-leica-rumors-sl2-m10x-m-with-evf-apo
Text suggests 24 MP similar to M240. "Alternative to M10."
https://leicarumors.com/2019/01/08/very-interesting-hints-about-future-leica-products.
Take note of the spread in the dates of these rumors. Also know that rumors that make it to RFF tend to be true or become true.
Cal
Huss
Veteran
Henry
Well-known
I honestly don't think that I would buy an EVF version of the M, but I see enough people ask for it that I want to see them create it for the stability of the brand and company. I see that thing selling, which is great news for people that want them (and others) to keep making new M lenses.
That said, I haven't tried an EVF since I played with the first Sony A7 and only tolerated it.
I'm probably going to buy a Canon R5 next year, which is the same idea but intended to go out into the wilderness for wildlife photography.
That said, I haven't tried an EVF since I played with the first Sony A7 and only tolerated it.
I'm probably going to buy a Canon R5 next year, which is the same idea but intended to go out into the wilderness for wildlife photography.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Huss,
Check out the M-EVF rumor links.
To me more like a cross between a CL and a M-body, optimized for M-glass, with some of the SL2 thrown in.
BTW the SL2 crushes the SL. To big a jump to put them together.
The M-EVF would be an interesting camera. I don't doubt the rumor. The more it emulates a Barnack the better I say. Strip it down to a bare still camera only, no touch screen required or needed, and the possibility of a "cheap Leica" or one that has a low price might be possible.
The SL2 is only $6K, my SL cost $7.5K 5 years ago. I say the price point might be surprising.
Cal
Godfrey
somewhat colored
A fundamental issue with the concept of an EVF-only M is that once you've got full TTL viewing and focusing available, the range of available M-mount lenses is a bit limiting to the body. They don't focus down to close-up distances and there are few longer focal lengths (135mm and up), both of which are primary reasons why photographers like TTL viewing and focusing.
The development of a new M-mount lenses that do focus more closely and/or are longer in focal length would mean that compatibility with existing M cameras is compromised for those lenses.
Sure, you can adapt other lenses to M-mount, but there are also constraints due to the mount diameter when it comes to performance on FF format with large macro extensions and long tele lenses. I ran into these issues with adapted R lenses, both long tele and in high magnification macro use, on the SL when the adaptation included using an M Adapter L.
My bet is that if an EVF-only M ever surfaces, it will have an L mount and use the M Adapter L. At which point, it is only marginally different from the rumored-a-couple-years-ago CM (the rumored and much anticipated mix of CL body with FF sensor) or a downsized, reshaped SL2.
There are only so many ways that this can go. Despite the (old) rumors of an EVF-only M, I really don't see it happening other than as a limited special edition at best, and the costs of development probably preclude that.
G
The development of a new M-mount lenses that do focus more closely and/or are longer in focal length would mean that compatibility with existing M cameras is compromised for those lenses.
Sure, you can adapt other lenses to M-mount, but there are also constraints due to the mount diameter when it comes to performance on FF format with large macro extensions and long tele lenses. I ran into these issues with adapted R lenses, both long tele and in high magnification macro use, on the SL when the adaptation included using an M Adapter L.
My bet is that if an EVF-only M ever surfaces, it will have an L mount and use the M Adapter L. At which point, it is only marginally different from the rumored-a-couple-years-ago CM (the rumored and much anticipated mix of CL body with FF sensor) or a downsized, reshaped SL2.
There are only so many ways that this can go. Despite the (old) rumors of an EVF-only M, I really don't see it happening other than as a limited special edition at best, and the costs of development probably preclude that.
G
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Just seeing this after messaging you to ask this very thing!- thanks for this very important (to me) bit of info.
narsuitus
Well-known
A few years ago, I developed a list of the specifications I wanted in a digital rangefinder.
Last year, I purchased a Leica M10 because it met most of my specifications. However, I returned it because it broke too many times in the short time I owned it.
Here are my specifications:
1. Built to withstand daily usage.
2. Body and controls are ergonomically designed.
3. Has wide rangefinder base like the Zeiss Ikon
4. Has user interface similar to Nikon SP, Leica MP, or Leica M6 rather than relying only on menus, toggle switches, and fly-wheels
5. About the size and style of a Leica MP or M6
6. Manufacturing quality of the Leica MP or M6
7. High quality, fast, interchangeable lenses
8. Live-view LCD screen
9. Ability to hide the LCD screen so that is not visible.
10. LCD screen swings and rotates (similar in design to the Canon G11)
11. Choice of built-in matrix, center-weighted, and spot metering
12. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, rangefinder focusing
13. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, exposure control
14. Offers shutter priority, aperture priority, manual, and program exposure modes but no scenic modes like portrait, landscape, etc.
15. Minimum of 5 megapixel resolution
16. Offers resolution equal to or greater than 35mm film
17. Creates RAW and standard jpeg image files
18. Image quality at least equal to the Fuji S5 digital SLR
19. Uses CompactFlash and/or SD memory cards
20. Uses standard-sized generic batteries rather than proprietary batteries
21. Uses rechargeable batteries that can be recharged outside of camera body
22. No built-in flash
23. Uses a digital sensor that allows the user to select horizontal rectangular, vertical rectangular, square, and panoramic aspect ratios.
24. Digital sensor is user upgradeable.
25. Camera software is user upgradeable.
26. Body cost $600 or less
27. Digital sensor is protected from dust.
28. Provides “B” (bulb) and “T” (timed) exposure options.
29. Provides custom color, contrast, saturation, dynamic range, white balance, and noise reduction controls.
30. Has totally silent mode (no beeping or whirling sounds during picture taking).
31. Has both hot shoe and PC flash connection for standard flash units.
32. Minimal warm-up time when unit is turned on.
33. Minimal delay when shutter is pressed
34. Ability to shoot at least 2.5 images per second
35. Ability to shoot at least 24 consecutive images
36. Minimal ISO light meter settings from 100 to 3200.
37. Camera does not have stupid sounding name like “CoolPix” or FinePix.”
Last year, I purchased a Leica M10 because it met most of my specifications. However, I returned it because it broke too many times in the short time I owned it.
Here are my specifications:
1. Built to withstand daily usage.
2. Body and controls are ergonomically designed.
3. Has wide rangefinder base like the Zeiss Ikon
4. Has user interface similar to Nikon SP, Leica MP, or Leica M6 rather than relying only on menus, toggle switches, and fly-wheels
5. About the size and style of a Leica MP or M6
6. Manufacturing quality of the Leica MP or M6
7. High quality, fast, interchangeable lenses
8. Live-view LCD screen
9. Ability to hide the LCD screen so that is not visible.
10. LCD screen swings and rotates (similar in design to the Canon G11)
11. Choice of built-in matrix, center-weighted, and spot metering
12. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, rangefinder focusing
13. Accurate and consistent, manual and auto, exposure control
14. Offers shutter priority, aperture priority, manual, and program exposure modes but no scenic modes like portrait, landscape, etc.
15. Minimum of 5 megapixel resolution
16. Offers resolution equal to or greater than 35mm film
17. Creates RAW and standard jpeg image files
18. Image quality at least equal to the Fuji S5 digital SLR
19. Uses CompactFlash and/or SD memory cards
20. Uses standard-sized generic batteries rather than proprietary batteries
21. Uses rechargeable batteries that can be recharged outside of camera body
22. No built-in flash
23. Uses a digital sensor that allows the user to select horizontal rectangular, vertical rectangular, square, and panoramic aspect ratios.
24. Digital sensor is user upgradeable.
25. Camera software is user upgradeable.
26. Body cost $600 or less
27. Digital sensor is protected from dust.
28. Provides “B” (bulb) and “T” (timed) exposure options.
29. Provides custom color, contrast, saturation, dynamic range, white balance, and noise reduction controls.
30. Has totally silent mode (no beeping or whirling sounds during picture taking).
31. Has both hot shoe and PC flash connection for standard flash units.
32. Minimal warm-up time when unit is turned on.
33. Minimal delay when shutter is pressed
34. Ability to shoot at least 2.5 images per second
35. Ability to shoot at least 24 consecutive images
36. Minimal ISO light meter settings from 100 to 3200.
37. Camera does not have stupid sounding name like “CoolPix” or FinePix.”
raid
Dad Photographer
Can you tell us how your M10 broke down? In which ways?
Henry
Well-known
I'm curious if you could expand on these three a bit.
For (24): were you picturing a scenario where you might have sensor modules that were swappable? What exactly was your goal/use-case for this?
For (25): Do you mean custom firmware? What features were you hoping to add to the cameras, how customizable were you hoping for? Picturing something like Magic Lantern for canon?
For (26): This one I understand but I am curious show your arrived at that price point.
aizan
Veteran
As usual, an M10 special edition that looks like this:
And an M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF that has IBIS, WiFi/apps/etc., internal memory, etc.
And an M-mount camera with a rangefinder-style EVF that has IBIS, WiFi/apps/etc., internal memory, etc.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Godfrey makes some great points. On my SL and SL2 I favor my Noct-Nikkor and my 50 Lux-R "E60."
For wides a mechanical RF'er avoids the vague focus. Pretty much my SL and SL2 is like a SLR where focus snap and longer lenses do better.
There is mention in one of the two links about the body thickness.
Also I have seen a M10 in use rigged with a 75 Noctilux with the hot shoe EVF. Although in the SoHo Leica store this was a customer's rig, and I know from mounting and trying a 75 Noctilux on my SL how shallow the DOF is on that lens wide open.
Although mucho costly, and both big and heavy, the Leica native glass is really good.
Cal
Bill Clark
Veteran
What about a LTM Leica?
One of my favorites is my 1936 Leica IIIa.
One of my favorites is my 1936 Leica IIIa.
Sonnar2
Well-known
I read that it will be a M240 sized body, then it will be a dead birth.
I still don't believe it. To omit RF and display will reduce room, weight and costs. The CL is now much smaller than a M10.
And why not add a model with LTM/M39 - good idea, it will improve sales - as well as a Titanium, crocodile leather edition...
Smaller flange-to-sensor distance of the CL will give some room for close-focus adaptors, either manual, or alike the Techart, which works not bad on SONY.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
They just made my next camera. M 10 M,
I liked the M 10 so much I bought another. I prefer rangefinders. They fit the way I see and work.
Sorry to hear narsuitus that you had issues with you M 10. I have been lucky with Leica I guess. I went all Leica a little over 4 years ago even for my pro work. Even with the recalls on my original MM and my M-E is have had less problems than I had with my Canons. I went Canon digital in 2005 and had Canon digital for about a decade and I had far more issues with them than I have had with my Leica's. When NATO was in town in 2112 I did some work them and I had a complete shutter failure on one of my Canons. I also had a 1Ds III show up from CPS dead on arrival. The reason I say this is not to rip on Canon. I think they make great cameras, but to point out all mechanical things can break down.
Neither of my M 10s have had a problem or my M 262 that were not self inflicted. I did drop one on my M 10s with my 90 APO on it but that was on me. Both had to be repaired and I was expecting the worst but it was only a short period of time they were gone. Less than a month. That is the one thing Canon had that was just amazing was CPS. There is a location here in the Chicago area (Itasca) and that was very convenient.
I think with all those that like EVF maybe Leica could offer an M sized body with that but please keep it off my Ms. I think cameras like the MM and the M D show Leica is a company that continues to make camera's that no one else will make. And that is a good thing. Because the rest are pretty much the same. And Leica M is a real choice. Nice to have that. I to wish Leica M were cheaper but it is what it is.
I liked the M 10 so much I bought another. I prefer rangefinders. They fit the way I see and work.
Sorry to hear narsuitus that you had issues with you M 10. I have been lucky with Leica I guess. I went all Leica a little over 4 years ago even for my pro work. Even with the recalls on my original MM and my M-E is have had less problems than I had with my Canons. I went Canon digital in 2005 and had Canon digital for about a decade and I had far more issues with them than I have had with my Leica's. When NATO was in town in 2112 I did some work them and I had a complete shutter failure on one of my Canons. I also had a 1Ds III show up from CPS dead on arrival. The reason I say this is not to rip on Canon. I think they make great cameras, but to point out all mechanical things can break down.
Neither of my M 10s have had a problem or my M 262 that were not self inflicted. I did drop one on my M 10s with my 90 APO on it but that was on me. Both had to be repaired and I was expecting the worst but it was only a short period of time they were gone. Less than a month. That is the one thing Canon had that was just amazing was CPS. There is a location here in the Chicago area (Itasca) and that was very convenient.
I think with all those that like EVF maybe Leica could offer an M sized body with that but please keep it off my Ms. I think cameras like the MM and the M D show Leica is a company that continues to make camera's that no one else will make. And that is a good thing. Because the rest are pretty much the same. And Leica M is a real choice. Nice to have that. I to wish Leica M were cheaper but it is what it is.
narsuitus
Well-known
I had mechanical and electrical problems with my M10.
At the time, I had 8, 16, and 32GB SanDisk and Lexar memory cards in my inventory. I also had three brand new SanDisk 32GB SDHC cards. I had a difficult time finding memory cards that the camera would accept.
After I found some memory cards that were acceptable to the camera, I could use the camera for a short period of time then it would suddenly stop working.
The Leica dealer was able to fix it three times but after the third time, he tried to send it to Leica for repair. After he described the problems to Leica, Leica told him to refund my money because they would not repair or replace a body that was formally an in-store demo model. The dealer refunded my $6,500.
Emile de Leon
Well-known
Way to go Leica...lol..
narsuitus
Well-known
For (24): were you picturing a scenario where you might have sensor modules that were swappable? What exactly was your goal/use-case for this?
I loved the modular design of some 35mm and medium format cameras where you can change the view screens, view finders, and film backs to meet your photographic needs.
When I need to change or customize sensor resolution, infrared sensitivity, ultraviolet sensitivity, dynamic range, or ISO range, I want to be able to change the camera sensor instead of buying a new camera body. That way, I could easily change a Leica M10 to a Leica M10 monochrome without buying a second body.
For (25): Do you mean custom firmware? What features were you hoping to add to the cameras, how customizable were you hoping for? Picturing something like Magic Lantern for canon?
It was not possible to upgrade the software of the first two digital cameras I owned. Since then, all the digital cameras that I have owned could have their software updated by the manufacturer. As a result, I decided to never again own a digital that could not have its software upgraded.
For (26): This one I understand but I am curious show your arrived at that price point."
The Nikon F2T (titanium) SLR was my favorite film camera. At one time, I owned two of them. Since $600 was for the new price I paid for each, I figured $600 was a reasonable price to pay for a digital camera.
Before the Leica M10, the most I ever spent for a camera body was $1800 for a used Leica M6.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Allen,
As a working pro know that Pete Souza, President Obama's White House Photographer, decided to use Canon's for those 8 years. His reason for selecting a Canon DSLR was because it had the quietest shutter.
I attended a show at a 600-700 seat auditorium to hear a presentation that was sponsored by Photoville where Pete described the 8 year experience. He shot over 2 million images over this 8 year period. I imagine he wore out a few shutters and destroyed some gear along the ways.
BTW he always carried two cameras, and over the eight years he said he only took one week's vacation and was only used one sick day.
The presentation involved describing certain shots that I would deem not only historic, but also iconic. I do not use the word iconic lightly, and to me iconic means you can see an image once and you will remember it the rest of your life.
One image was in the situation room when SEAL Team 6 took out Bin Laden. A detail was revealed and discussion about the open lap top in that shot because it had classified information.
Also he had a book coming out and talked about how he culled and edited from that library of 2 million pictures.
At the end of the presentation someone asked what his life is like now. He spoke of being mighty tired.
Another iconic shot is with Bono playin the beatles song "Norwegan Wood" with Alica Keys in the background. President Obama had turned to Pete and said, "Can you believe this?"
Bono previously asked where he should sit, and President Obama said, "Anywhere," and that is when Bono picked up the guitar and started playing.
So all these concentrated anadotes...
About half a year later the book was available.
I have a Nikon F5 and as a badge of honor one day I jammed the shutter. Pretty much even though the camera is clean, the shutter I would say is likely worn out.
Cal
raid
Dad Photographer
Thanks for the stories, Cal.
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