swoop
Well-known
I have a 35 summicron v4 made in Canada. Fantastic lens. But the fact that all my other lenses and bodies say "made in germany" and this one read "made in canada" makes it seems like a cheap runt. But it certainly doesn't feel that way. It's just the hype. I mean, there are a dozen or so instances where people have seen my camera and have no idea what it is, then I say it's a Leica and the "oohs and ahhs" begin.
Leica's are wonderful. But there is an air of luxury to them, and being made in Germany adds to that. It's like the Mercedes/BMW thing.
Leica's are wonderful. But there is an air of luxury to them, and being made in Germany adds to that. It's like the Mercedes/BMW thing.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
I thought I had been buying non-German Leitz/Leica gear during a good portion of the 1960s, 70s and 80s??? With one exception that everyone loves to bash, I don't think the quality of the Canadian products was thought to be inferior. People preferred the German stuff, true, but no one said the Canadian stuff was inferior.
BigSteveG
Well-known
Most 75 lux's (and Noctiluxes too!) are from Canada no? Mine is and I love it!!
GeroV
Established
love my canada made m4-p, 50 Summicron R and 135 Elmarit R.
Bailey
Established
I already did, and I love my CL. If they made, as has been suggested on these boards, a digital CL priced lower than the M8 then I would gladly buy that too.
Just about all of the german made leica stuff is out of my price range. It would be nice if my price range were higher but there you are. I'd be very happy if they started making more things outside of germany and pricing them in a range that I can afford.
Just about all of the german made leica stuff is out of my price range. It would be nice if my price range were higher but there you are. I'd be very happy if they started making more things outside of germany and pricing them in a range that I can afford.
Olsen
Well-known
I clicked on the 'ofcause, as long as the quality is the same'-alternative. But on second thought I am not so sure. One of the reasons I bought a M8 - the only new Leica camera I have ever bought, was that it was still made in Europe. When and if the production is moved to some low cost country with far less employee protection and slave-low wages compared to Germany, don't reckon with me as a customer anymore. If we give in to this we will all end up with a bowl of rice per day as a salary.
A camera and what it costs? It is not that important.
A camera and what it costs? It is not that important.
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
REDITED:
I would only want to try out the newer P&S digital stuff *PanaLeica*
(I`m getting a Lumix LX1 in a trade)
but I honestly would`nt invest in anything new (my personal opinion) while the horror stories I read about the M8 leads me to think, why have so many problems with a $5,000 dollar digital camera?
The M6 should have been pushed forward in a lot more different modifications, not just as a special edition camera (Danish Wedding - who cares? - this shows how greedy the company was for sales back then) but more technical advances placed into it, not just changing the viewfinder.....
A 12 MEGAPIXEL LEICA M6 DIGITAL BACK WOULD HAVE BEEN THE DREAM, WHY DIDN`T LEICA LISTEN, SO MANY CONSUMERS WANTED THIS?????
THEY WOULD HAVE SAVED THE EMBARASSMENT OF THE M8 AND MADE SO MANY PEOPLE HAPPY
(and at a price that more people could afford say $2,000 to $3,000 and don`t say it can`t be done, I KNOW that could have been done and done well, they should have pared up with SONY and worked out a Euro/Asian M6 deal)
They should have busted out with something to ENHANCE the M6 line and make Leica Photography more accessible to the average man or woman, this way helped the company boom in 1954 with the M3 - why didn`t Leica pull off another M3? and not a boner like the M8
And as for RETRO FILM camera s - the M6 J would have been a hot seller if they had produced it as the MP is now, put a Leicavit on a Chrome or Black M3 styled body with M6 mechanicals - they would have flew off the shelves back in the 1980`s and 90`s!
They`d fly off the shelves now, but they would have to set up an assembly line back in Wetzlar to stamp the top plate in the old fashioned style!
(look how crazy the Nikon guys are for that SP2000 camera- why Leica doesn`t make a REAL retro looking camera I don`t know?)
The M7 is an orphan just like the M5 was and the M8 was`nt ready for the market....not by the way I see all the problems they are having with it, not worth paying the hefty price for a first ever digital M, it might be a good camera in 5 years after all the "bugs" are out of it
Leitz should have just let well enough alone and built up a more affordable M film system to get back more film shooters as customers and leave the digital stuff to the Far Eastern boys
Sorry I don`t want to get away from the OP`s original subject....but I`m putting my personal opinion into this a bit
The immediate postwar era 1945/50
(not counting the contaminated chrome batch in 1948/49)
and mid 1950`s to the early 1960`s were the haydays for Leica, they built the BEST cameras then *Leica IIIC and M3* and these were coveted instruments of Photography, they also seemed more accessible to a wider range of people back then and the amount of famous quality photos from PJ`s prove it from that era
The whole Wetzlar vs. Midland thing is pure ego and a label, sadly also effected on resale price as well (except with the Noctilux`s) everything Midland Canda except the rarer 1950`s stuff is almost always cheaper than Wetzlar items and the quality is just as fine and good in terms of performance
This whole M8 deal just left a sour taste in my mouth with new Leica, I love the early pre 1988 M6`s and late 80`s and early 90`s lenses
(with the removable lens shades)
I personaly think that era was the height of the modern day Leica quality and workmanship - still "Made In Germany"
Leica for me personally lost it`s importance and significance as a serious market camera after they moved to Solms......
Old dogs don`t want to learn new tricks, that`s why I still shoot with the vintage stuff
Tom
I would only want to try out the newer P&S digital stuff *PanaLeica*
(I`m getting a Lumix LX1 in a trade)
but I honestly would`nt invest in anything new (my personal opinion) while the horror stories I read about the M8 leads me to think, why have so many problems with a $5,000 dollar digital camera?
The M6 should have been pushed forward in a lot more different modifications, not just as a special edition camera (Danish Wedding - who cares? - this shows how greedy the company was for sales back then) but more technical advances placed into it, not just changing the viewfinder.....
A 12 MEGAPIXEL LEICA M6 DIGITAL BACK WOULD HAVE BEEN THE DREAM, WHY DIDN`T LEICA LISTEN, SO MANY CONSUMERS WANTED THIS?????
THEY WOULD HAVE SAVED THE EMBARASSMENT OF THE M8 AND MADE SO MANY PEOPLE HAPPY
(and at a price that more people could afford say $2,000 to $3,000 and don`t say it can`t be done, I KNOW that could have been done and done well, they should have pared up with SONY and worked out a Euro/Asian M6 deal)
They should have busted out with something to ENHANCE the M6 line and make Leica Photography more accessible to the average man or woman, this way helped the company boom in 1954 with the M3 - why didn`t Leica pull off another M3? and not a boner like the M8
And as for RETRO FILM camera s - the M6 J would have been a hot seller if they had produced it as the MP is now, put a Leicavit on a Chrome or Black M3 styled body with M6 mechanicals - they would have flew off the shelves back in the 1980`s and 90`s!
They`d fly off the shelves now, but they would have to set up an assembly line back in Wetzlar to stamp the top plate in the old fashioned style!
(look how crazy the Nikon guys are for that SP2000 camera- why Leica doesn`t make a REAL retro looking camera I don`t know?)
The M7 is an orphan just like the M5 was and the M8 was`nt ready for the market....not by the way I see all the problems they are having with it, not worth paying the hefty price for a first ever digital M, it might be a good camera in 5 years after all the "bugs" are out of it
Leitz should have just let well enough alone and built up a more affordable M film system to get back more film shooters as customers and leave the digital stuff to the Far Eastern boys
Sorry I don`t want to get away from the OP`s original subject....but I`m putting my personal opinion into this a bit
The immediate postwar era 1945/50
(not counting the contaminated chrome batch in 1948/49)
and mid 1950`s to the early 1960`s were the haydays for Leica, they built the BEST cameras then *Leica IIIC and M3* and these were coveted instruments of Photography, they also seemed more accessible to a wider range of people back then and the amount of famous quality photos from PJ`s prove it from that era
The whole Wetzlar vs. Midland thing is pure ego and a label, sadly also effected on resale price as well (except with the Noctilux`s) everything Midland Canda except the rarer 1950`s stuff is almost always cheaper than Wetzlar items and the quality is just as fine and good in terms of performance
This whole M8 deal just left a sour taste in my mouth with new Leica, I love the early pre 1988 M6`s and late 80`s and early 90`s lenses
(with the removable lens shades)
I personaly think that era was the height of the modern day Leica quality and workmanship - still "Made In Germany"
Leica for me personally lost it`s importance and significance as a serious market camera after they moved to Solms......
Old dogs don`t want to learn new tricks, that`s why I still shoot with the vintage stuff
Tom
Last edited:
bob cole
Well-known
Would You Buy SAME Quality Leica Gear NOT made in Germany! Reply to Thread
Would You Buy SAME Quality Leica Gear NOT made in Germany! Reply to Thread
Leica's are wonderful. But there is an air of luxury to them, and being made in Germany adds to that. It's like the Mercedes/BMW thing, Swoop says..
--------------------
Made in Germany still carries a lot of weight -- but it's not always merited...
I've driven a Mercedes for more than 50 years, half of them a Diesel, and I can tell you that today's Mercedes is nothing like it was in the Good Old Days when a great Mercedes cost about $4,000 usd brand new!...Even my Mercedes mechanic says so...
The engineering is still excellent but in the Old Days, when labor was far less expensive, the engineers first created the car and management then set the price; today, to ensure a reasonable profit, management first sets the price and engineers then create the car..
Would You Buy SAME Quality Leica Gear NOT made in Germany! Reply to Thread
Leica's are wonderful. But there is an air of luxury to them, and being made in Germany adds to that. It's like the Mercedes/BMW thing, Swoop says..
--------------------
Made in Germany still carries a lot of weight -- but it's not always merited...
I've driven a Mercedes for more than 50 years, half of them a Diesel, and I can tell you that today's Mercedes is nothing like it was in the Good Old Days when a great Mercedes cost about $4,000 usd brand new!...Even my Mercedes mechanic says so...
The engineering is still excellent but in the Old Days, when labor was far less expensive, the engineers first created the car and management then set the price; today, to ensure a reasonable profit, management first sets the price and engineers then create the car..
Uwe_Nds
Chief Assistant Driver
bob cole said:
Bob,
That's what the taxi drivers in Germany say about each new generation of Mercs...
A Mercedes diesel is the German taxi car and some year ago when the W124 series came out, the taxi drivers actually organised a rally in front of the Daimler-Benz headquarters because of the lack of build quality of the new series compared to the older W123.
Actually, today, the W124 is considered the best Mercedes ever made...
And yes, I would always prefer a used, well run in Mercedes to any Japanese car.
Best regards,
Uwe
Ben Z
Veteran
A number of my Leica lenses were made in Canada, that's never been an issue to me. What I have always refused to buy, and would continue to refuse, are Leica-branded products that are by and large other brand's products with the Leica name and a price multiplication. That included the R lenses that were optically identical to ones made by Minolta or Sigma and sold for a fraction of the price. Yeah I heard the stories about better build-quality and QC, so ok maybe that made them worth 50% more, not 5 times more.
I'm always surprised at what people pay for Leica gear. Even when the dollar and euro were 1:1, Leica gear was very expensive. There obviously is a continuing market, however small of a niche it may be, or Leica would be gone (or the prices would be lower.)
Another German company faced issues in the early 90s and was able to come up with solutions that have resulted in it being the most profitable car company in the world...Porsche. And they also serve a very small niche, compared to Ford/GM, etc (i.e., Canon/Nikon.) The Boxster is made in Finland, for example, not Germany. That fact didn't seem to affect sales, and that model may have saved Porsche from getting swallowed by bigger fish a few years back.
Another German company faced issues in the early 90s and was able to come up with solutions that have resulted in it being the most profitable car company in the world...Porsche. And they also serve a very small niche, compared to Ford/GM, etc (i.e., Canon/Nikon.) The Boxster is made in Finland, for example, not Germany. That fact didn't seem to affect sales, and that model may have saved Porsche from getting swallowed by bigger fish a few years back.
robbo
Robbo
Hmmm, over 80% of us vote for option 2. On a personal level, I have a Japanese 50mm Planar, a Canadian 90mm 'cron and a German 35mm ASPH for my German M6TTL. If I'm ever a good enough photographer to reach the boundaries of any of my gear, perhaps I'll look at their origins:>)
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
CameraQuest said:
There is a reason Leica says this. It is in response to their customers!
There was an uproar from Leica enthusiasts in the 1970s when the M4-2 (and the M4-P) was produced in Canada. Leicaphiles further complained when M lenses were largely produced there.
Leica's response was that the next model (the M6) would be made in Germany. Later, lens production was transferred to Germany, as promised, after the closure of the Elcan (Midland) facility in the late 1980s.
peterm1
Veteran
I already have - an M4P made in Canada. In principle I do not care where a camera is designed or made, what matters is the design and build quality. But you have to admit those pesky Germans have something. I think its to do with their engineering culture and the way their technicians are trained. (This is a long standing thing in Germany.) While in principle I do not mind, I cannot think of any cameras that have been designed and made by any other country (no matter how pricey and no matter how good in quality) that has quite the same "je ne ce qua" (how on earth is that spelled?) For me its a bit like owning a German car - just close the door and listen to the sound it makes. That will give you an idea how they are built. No tinny clunk but a firm quiet sound that is redolent of quality and price and lots of metal. Having said that Nikon and Canon leave Leica in their dust as far as technology goes. I know that misses the point of this question and that Leica users like the old world feel of their equipment but they are not in the same ballpark in this respect.
jbf
||||||
I dont care who makes it as long as its put together well.
Frankie
Speaking Frankly
ferider said:
********************
Actually, the quality of Japanese hand-working was always high...but slow. Just look at any of the traditional crafts.
Manufacturing is a whole different matter, and “statistical” quality control methods were introduced into Japan in the late '50's by an American professor, which soon resulted in the new image of “Japanese Quality”…a term now even used in advertising.
It is also true that mass-production methods (which is not the same as QA methods) used in Japanese automotive industry was adopted even by Porsche in the mid ‘90’s for the new Boxter production.
However, 100% QA methods usable in hand-working is impractical in manufacturing, even in Germany.
Learning from each other is not a shame...but not learning is.
And, the enabling part of the new M8...the chip...was from Kodak, a result of pure technology.
Last edited:
bob cole
Well-known
Would You Buy SAME Leica Gear NOT made in Germany?
Would You Buy SAME Leica Gear NOT made in Germany?
Uwe, I drive a Mercedes Diesel because the German taxi drivers in Frankfurt told me that it would last a long time and they do...But like a Swiss watch or a Leica camera, they demand repeated and expensive cleaning, lubrication and adjustment...Forty years ago a friend with a Mercedes convertible, complaining about his mountain of repair bills, called it "Hitler's Revenge."
Would You Buy SAME Leica Gear NOT made in Germany?
--------------------------------------Uwe_Nds said:
Uwe, I drive a Mercedes Diesel because the German taxi drivers in Frankfurt told me that it would last a long time and they do...But like a Swiss watch or a Leica camera, they demand repeated and expensive cleaning, lubrication and adjustment...Forty years ago a friend with a Mercedes convertible, complaining about his mountain of repair bills, called it "Hitler's Revenge."
maddoc
... likes film again.
I have both a M4-P made in Canada (~ 20 years ago) and a MP made in Germany (~ 2 years ago). The M4-P works perfect after the first CLA (Youxin Ye) in 20 years and the MP needed to be fixed by Leica now ...
ampguy
Veteran
I'm not sure the quality is better, but I like the German Leica stuff, would pay what the market bears which depending on product is maybe 20-40% for where same product is made in Germany and out of Germany, IMHO.
amateriat
We're all light!
(Looking at my Hexar RFs and M-Hexanon lenses)
Hmm...I thought I already did!
I like to think of Leica as having cultivated a culture of quality. The problem there is, as with more than one other firm that cultivated an image of no-expense-spared quality (from Rolex to Apple to Mercedes), they've gotten lost along the way, and, contrary to what might pass as their original "charter", also got caught up in the market's whims of the moment: paradoxaically, they ignored important changes in the photographic world a bit too long (digital), then, as a result, get whipsawed seriously enough to attempt a crash program to bring themselves up to speed, at least perceptually if not quite in reality, leading to assorted and sundry glitches in their final product as it gets shoved out the front door. Panic rarely leads to polished products (I was going to make an exemption for the Manhattan Project, but perhaps it's best to leave that matter alone), and the best thing I can say for Leica is that it appears they will live to learn from this.
- Barrett
Hmm...I thought I already did!
I like to think of Leica as having cultivated a culture of quality. The problem there is, as with more than one other firm that cultivated an image of no-expense-spared quality (from Rolex to Apple to Mercedes), they've gotten lost along the way, and, contrary to what might pass as their original "charter", also got caught up in the market's whims of the moment: paradoxaically, they ignored important changes in the photographic world a bit too long (digital), then, as a result, get whipsawed seriously enough to attempt a crash program to bring themselves up to speed, at least perceptually if not quite in reality, leading to assorted and sundry glitches in their final product as it gets shoved out the front door. Panic rarely leads to polished products (I was going to make an exemption for the Manhattan Project, but perhaps it's best to leave that matter alone), and the best thing I can say for Leica is that it appears they will live to learn from this.
- Barrett
Last edited: