Xtol newbie question

[stevierose]

I want to try developing some Tmax 400 in Xtol. I have read lots of threads about various ways to go about mixing it. Two common suggestions are to: 1. Use warm water to make dissolving the powder easier, and 2. To use distilled or deionized water. So here is the newbie question--If I use distilled water, what is the best way to heat it up? If I use tap water I can just choose warmer water. But, not sure how best to heat up distilled water for this purpose. I could warm it up in a pot on the stove, but, I am concerned that minerals/metals from the pot will get in the water defeating the purpose. Sorry for such a basic question, but, I haven't seen any comment on it anywhere.

Steve Rosenblum

 

[mcfingon]

From what I've read about the re-formulating of Xtol to stop it going off quickly, you don't need to use distilled water any more Steve. I use warm tap water and haven't had any problems with it going off.

 

[BLKRCAT]

just fill your sink with hot water and let your distilled bottle sit in it for a little bit.

 

[daveywaugh]

I use XTOL 1:1 with TMAX all the time now and love it. Stored undiluted and then bring it to temperature with normal tap water (heated or cooled accordingly). I personally only used distilled water for the last part of my wash but obviously this depends on the quality of your tap water.

For what it's worth, I shoot TMAX 400 at box speed and develop at 20 degrees C for 9:15 (as per massive dev times). Agitating for the first minute and then with 4 inversions per minute.

 

[stevierose]

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions!

 

[dschal]

I heat up the distilled water in a microwave. Works well.

 

[Rob-F]

I heat up the distilled water in a microwave. Works well.

This. A glass container will remove any possibility of contamination by metal.

 

[joeswe]

First, Xtol was never reformulated. There was a problem with the packaging that lead to premature failure which was solved.

Second, Xtol's main developing agent, iso-ascorbate was and is sensitive to certain heavy metals (specifically iron), even in very small traces. Such metals are contained in most tap waters as a result of the materials used for house plumbing. Xtol contains an agent that deactivates the iron and should prevent Xtol from going bad too quickly, but it is still safer to use demineralized water for preparing the stock solution. The consensus is however that it is safe to use tap water for diluting the stock solution immediately before processing (in case you plan to use it diluted 1+1). The second benefit of demineralized water is that, unlike fresh tap water, it has usually been sitting still in its contain and contains very little dissolved oxygen (also bad for the developer).

Third, there is absolutely no reason to heat up the water excessively. The recommended temperature range for preparing the solution is 20-30 C (IIRC, please check the instructions on the pack). If your room temperature is below 20C you can warm up the water by putting the container close to or on top of a radiator for a couple of hours. Another way would be to put the container with the demin water in a kitchen sink, shower, bath tub whatever and fill it with warm water and let it sit for an hour or two. You could also do that in the bucket, beaker or whatever you will later use as a mixing container, but chances are the water will collect dust when sitting open for hours. Unlike with some other developers there is no need to heat up the water to 50 degrees C or more. I am sure, there is a reason why Kodak chose to recommended such a rather moderate temperature range, so it's best to stick with it IMO.

 

[joeswe]

And one more thing, when dissolving the powder, do that in a well ventilated area, you do not want to inhale any of the stuff. This is not specific to Xtol, just a general guideline when handling powder chemicals. In case of lack of sufficient ventilation, you can also do the following to prepare Xtol: wear clean nitrile rubber gloves, rinse the pack from the outside, submerge it partially into the water in the mixing vessel and cut the pack in half under water with a clean (!) pair of scissors or a clean cutting knife. This is the way I do it.

 

[Freakscene]

The second benefit of demineralized water is that, unlike fresh tap water, it has usually been sitting still in its contain and contains very little dissolved oxygen (also bad for the developer).

At room temperature, water equalises at 6+mg/L dissolved oxygen irrespective of how long it's been sitting. What you want to avoid is the oxygen demand in the developer being continually supplied with more oxygen. An airtight container with a small volume of air in it is much more important than trying to remove dissolved oxygen that reappears almost as soon as you stop removing it. I have never seen commercial deionised or distilled water, apart from very expensive molecular biology or analytical grade water (yes, such things exist) that is sold in anything approaching a properly airtight bottle.

Third, there is absolutely no reason to heat up the water excessively. The recommended temperature range for preparing the solution is 20-30 C (IIRC, please check the instructions on the pack). If your room temperature is below 20C you can warm up the water by putting the container close to or on top of a radiator for a couple of hours. Another way would be to put the container with the demin water in a kitchen sink, shower, bath tub whatever and fill it with warm water and let it sit for an hour or two. You could also do that in the bucket, beaker or whatever you will later use as a mixing container, but chances are the water will collect dust when sitting open for hours. Unlike with some other developers there is no need to heat up the water to 50 degrees C or more. I am sure, there is a reason why Kodak chose to recommended such a rather moderate temperature range, so it's best to stick with it IMO.

Kodak recommends 18-30C. This is to avoid encouraging decomposition of the dimezone-s (4-hydroxymethyl-4-methyl-1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidone) which accelerates with increasing temperature.

To heat your water, put it in a pyrex container in a bath of hot tap water with plastic food wrap over the container holding the distilled or deionised water.

You only need the deionised water in the first place if your tap water is bad.

Marty

 

[presspass]

Used Xtol for more than a decade, doing 14-20 rolls of 35 a week in a deep tank and replenishing the developer. Never had it go bad; it did create sludge in the bottom of the tank - you could filter it out or not, your choice. Always mixed with distilled water at room temperature. Those were, and probably still are, Kodak's instructions. You DO NOT have to heat the water as you would mixing D-76 or other metal/sulfite developers. Stored in five one-liter brown glass bottles, it never seemed to go bad. BTW, the replenished tank was used that way - not dumped - for more than three years without ill effect.

 

[Graybeard]

I have never seen commercial deionised or distilled water, apart from very expensive molecular biology or analytical grade water (yes, such things exist) that is sold in anything approaching a properly airtight bottle.


The local supermarket here (Hannaford) sells distilled water by the gallon in the section which also has spring water.

I did have commercial Xtol go bad within a week of dissolving the powder. I use well water that has been through a water softener that also has an iron removal resin.

I use Mytol now. My stock solution contains all of the components in tap water except the ascorbate and phenidone. I add the ascorbate and phenidone (solution in propylene glycol, kept refrigerated) immediately before use. This has worked very well.

 

[mcfingon]

Here's a link to an article on mixing and using Xtol:
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/xtol/

 

[stevierose]

You only need the deionised water in the first place if your tap water is bad.

Marty

So how do I tell if my tap water is "bad" for the purpose of film development. I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan and they do publish a yearly report on the water such as this one:
https://www.a2gov.org/departments/water-treatment/Documents/2016%20A2%20Water%20Quality%20Report.pdf

Is my water "good" or "bad" for developing chemicals?

Thanks!
Steve Rosenblum

 

[Graybeard]

So how do I tell if my tap water is "bad" for the purpose of film development. I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan and they do publish a yearly report on the water such as this one:
https://www.a2gov.org/departments/water-treatment/Documents/2016%20A2%20Water%20Quality%20Report.pdf

Is my water "good" or "bad" for developing chemicals?

Thanks!
Steve Rosenblum

If your supermarket carries distilled water, a gallon will set you back about a dollar and eliminate worries about water quality.

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

So how do I tell if my tap water is "bad" for the purpose of film development. I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan and they do publish a yearly report on the water such as this one:
https://www.a2gov.org/departments/water-treatment/Documents/2016 A2 Water Quality Report.pdf

Is my water "good" or "bad" for developing chemicals?

Thanks!
Steve Rosenblum

Steve,

I work on the assumption that all tap water is bad for mixing developers. Distilled water can be bought for $1 a gallon at Kroger, Walgreens, Walmart, Meijer, etc. It is so cheap that its silly to not use it.

There are other bad things in tap water aside from iron. Chlorine and other chemicals used to kill micro-organisms are not good for developers, either. Yes, a lot of people on here are adamant that tap water is fine. Maybe they're lucky, or maybe they aren't getting optimal results and don't know any better. That's their problem; I have always found that simply doing it right the first time is much easier.

As for developing times; ignore those recommending the Massive Development Chart. None of the times on there are tested by anyone, and most are not very good. I don't have any recent experience with Xtol, but my recommendation with Kodak films and chemicals has always been to start with Kodak's developing times first. They are virtually ALWAYS correct.

Another thing to be aware of with Xtol is that is does not tolerate dilution as well as some more concentrated developers like Tmax Developer or HC-110. If you dilute the stock solution (you'll probably want to dilute it 1+1 for best tonality), make sure there is at least 100ml of the stock solution in your diluted developer. When diluting 1+1, this is not usually an issue since it takes more than 200ml of total developer to even cover a single 35mm reel anyway. Some people like to dilute Xtol even more than 1+1, and the minimum stock amount can become a problem then. Kodak no longer recommends it.

 

[Freakscene]

So how do I tell if my tap water is "bad" for the purpose of film development. I live in Ann Arbor, Michigan and they do publish a yearly report on the water such as this one:
https://www.a2gov.org/departments/water-treatment/Documents/2016%20A2%20Water%20Quality%20Report.pdf

Is my water "good" or "bad" for developing chemicals?

Your water is hard, both in terms of calcium content and total hardness. It might be ok; there might be enough chelating agents in the Xtol to neutralise the hardness, but there might not be. But I have not seen water quality cause problems with any non-ascorbate developers, and I measure my results carefully.

Marty

 

[Freakscene]

Another thing to be aware of with Xtol is that is does not tolerate dilution as well as some more concentrated developers like Tmax Developer or HC-110. If you dilute the stock solution (you'll probably want to dilute it 1+1 for best tonality), make sure there is at least 100ml of the stock solution in your diluted developer. When diluting 1+1, this is not usually an issue since it takes more than 200ml of total developer to even cover a single 35mm reel anyway. Some people like to dilute Xtol even more than 1+1, and the minimum stock amount can become a problem then. Kodak no longer recommends it.

I prefer the tonality Xtol 1+3. The problem is that very occasionally 100mL of stock/roll isn't enough, particularly with TMX and high key scenes. Developer is cheap, so if in doubt, there is no reason not to develop in a larger volume. This is Neopan 1600, EI640, Noctilux.

I routinely developed Plus-X in Xtol 1+5, but you need to develop no more than one or two rolls in a 1L developing tank, and be careful about water and handling. Plus-X, EI 100, 35 Summilux ASPH pre-FLE.

The problem for Kodak is that they have to provide instructions that are as close to bullet proof as possible. But Kodak can't ensure that users follow instructions or take care, but Kodak and sales of their products can suffer when people complain, and Kodak apparently look 'arrogant' or 'overbearing' (I've seen both online) if they respond to complaints with 'you didn't follow the instructions, what do you expect?'.

I have never found a B&W film that I didn't think looked good developed in dilute Xtol, but ascorbate developers are more sensitive to water quality variables than other developers. So mix carefully in good water, understand the influences and variables both for the developer and in development, and keep careful track of what you are doing. It's not so hard.

Marty