Peter Jennings
Well-known
Yahoo! Japan Auctions
First of all, please excuse the long post. I thought my experiences with this service might be beneficial to some of you, so if you're interested, please read on. Also, to the moderators, if this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to move it. Thanks.
So, for the past year I've been using Yahoo Japan Auctions to buy rangefinder gear through a proxy service. And with the Dollar/Yen exchange rate being quite good for Americans lately, its value to me has increased. I've not seen this method of gear shopping discussed much here and I may be revealing someone's secret in talking about it now, so I'll start off by apologizing for that. Sorry, but the secret is out.
I guess it's most logical to compare it to eBay, but it's very different. The major procedural difference is that there is almost no sniping. Late-auction bids automatically extend the auction 5-10 minutes, so there is little advantage to waiting to the last minute to bid.
Regardless, the ending prices are usually competitive or even a good deal lower than what you'd see on eBay for most of the stuff I buy. I've been getting Made in Japan rangefinder gear from the 50s from makers like Canon, Nikon, Leotax and Nicca. Even the Buy it Now prices seem a little more affordable (along with more variety in general). I recently got a rare Leotax S body in excellent condition for under a hundred dollars - with good condition leather case.
Now, a lot of this stuff may not appeal to many of you, but I love it. Sure, I've had to do a little sprucing up to some items, but that is also fascinating and fun for me. Also, I've had a couple disappointments - notably a couple Canon 50/1.8s with permanent haze (but still attached to very good condition bodies).
That leads to the major disadvantage of the service compared to eBay - product photos and descriptions. Yahoo Japan allows 3 photos of low resolution in the main listing. Some sellers add more pics in the product description, but it is not typical. And for someone overseas who cannot easily verify details with the seller, deciphering the Japanese translations of product descriptions from Google can be dicey.
But that leads to another advantage to the service - the descriptions of condition are generally conservative and honest. Most sellers inspect the gear carefully and note defects with good detail. This does not mean they are all knowledgeable, however. It seems mostly a means of absolving themselves of liability. Also, sellers of gear this old often use the term 'junk' in their descriptions, but this is misleading for foreigners. 'Junk' seems to equate more to 'antique' in English.
As for using a proxy service for bidding, payment and shipping, it does negate some of the price savings, but I still usually find myself ahead of eBay prices after the service fees. Most proxies charge purchase fee equal to a small percentage of the final price. Then there may be another small payment fee of a couple dollars. Next, there is domestic Japan shipping to pay - but this typically runs under $10. And finally you must pay international shipping - exclusively EMS. And EMS is great! Very fast, very affordable, and easily traceable - much better than USPS right now.
So, that's about it. I hope this treatise has been helpful to some. If anyone else has good experiences with this stuff - or bad, please share below.
Thanks for reading!
First of all, please excuse the long post. I thought my experiences with this service might be beneficial to some of you, so if you're interested, please read on. Also, to the moderators, if this belongs somewhere else, please feel free to move it. Thanks.
So, for the past year I've been using Yahoo Japan Auctions to buy rangefinder gear through a proxy service. And with the Dollar/Yen exchange rate being quite good for Americans lately, its value to me has increased. I've not seen this method of gear shopping discussed much here and I may be revealing someone's secret in talking about it now, so I'll start off by apologizing for that. Sorry, but the secret is out.
I guess it's most logical to compare it to eBay, but it's very different. The major procedural difference is that there is almost no sniping. Late-auction bids automatically extend the auction 5-10 minutes, so there is little advantage to waiting to the last minute to bid.
Regardless, the ending prices are usually competitive or even a good deal lower than what you'd see on eBay for most of the stuff I buy. I've been getting Made in Japan rangefinder gear from the 50s from makers like Canon, Nikon, Leotax and Nicca. Even the Buy it Now prices seem a little more affordable (along with more variety in general). I recently got a rare Leotax S body in excellent condition for under a hundred dollars - with good condition leather case.
Now, a lot of this stuff may not appeal to many of you, but I love it. Sure, I've had to do a little sprucing up to some items, but that is also fascinating and fun for me. Also, I've had a couple disappointments - notably a couple Canon 50/1.8s with permanent haze (but still attached to very good condition bodies).
That leads to the major disadvantage of the service compared to eBay - product photos and descriptions. Yahoo Japan allows 3 photos of low resolution in the main listing. Some sellers add more pics in the product description, but it is not typical. And for someone overseas who cannot easily verify details with the seller, deciphering the Japanese translations of product descriptions from Google can be dicey.
But that leads to another advantage to the service - the descriptions of condition are generally conservative and honest. Most sellers inspect the gear carefully and note defects with good detail. This does not mean they are all knowledgeable, however. It seems mostly a means of absolving themselves of liability. Also, sellers of gear this old often use the term 'junk' in their descriptions, but this is misleading for foreigners. 'Junk' seems to equate more to 'antique' in English.
As for using a proxy service for bidding, payment and shipping, it does negate some of the price savings, but I still usually find myself ahead of eBay prices after the service fees. Most proxies charge purchase fee equal to a small percentage of the final price. Then there may be another small payment fee of a couple dollars. Next, there is domestic Japan shipping to pay - but this typically runs under $10. And finally you must pay international shipping - exclusively EMS. And EMS is great! Very fast, very affordable, and easily traceable - much better than USPS right now.
So, that's about it. I hope this treatise has been helpful to some. If anyone else has good experiences with this stuff - or bad, please share below.
Thanks for reading!
Thanks for posting. Its interesting to read your take on the YJ auctions!
The automatic 5 minute extension each time there's a bid within the last five minutes is a user selectable setting when listing an auction. Its definitely a nice feature for sellers to maximize their selling price, so most sellers use it. But auctions can sometimes drag on for a long time because of it
That's because of the auction listing interface. Yahoo Japan hosts the first three photos, but if you want to include more photos you have to upload them elsewhere and then link them across yourself, and that's more hassle than most sellers are willing to go through.
You're correct, calling an item "junk" is the seller's way of absolving themselves of any liability. The camera shops here do the same thing. It just means "function not guaranteed, sold as is, no returns, bid accordingly".
Most sellers describe their items adequately, but I've still had my share of problems buying on the YJ auctions. And that brings me to their biggest downside - unlike eBay, the buyer has very little recourse if they buy an item not as described, or get ripped off.
One example for you... a friend (another foreigner living in Japan) won an auction for an aquarium item on the YJ auctions, received a message promptly on how to pay, and he paid immediately by online bank transfer (bank transfer is the standard method of payment on the YJ auctions). The item never arrived and he never got a reply, despite sending multiple messages. After a month or so, I went with him to the police station to help him file a police report so he could begin the process of filing a claim with the YJ auctions. The police asked if he got the name, address, and phone number of the seller. He said no, he never got that information. He just got bank account details and an amount to pay that included shipping. Right there the police said he's screwed because he didn't ask for seller contact details. No details, no case. Its actually written (buried is more like it) in the YJ auctions terms of service somewhere, but of course nobody reads that. So buyer beware, and make sure you get the seller contact details before you proceed with a transaction.
Luckily, there is a happy ending to my friend's story. About two months later he was contacted by the real account owner who explained that his YJ auction account had been fraudulently used by a friend of his son, and he'd only just found out about it. The real account owner took responsibility and reimbursed the money.
The automatic 5 minute extension each time there's a bid within the last five minutes is a user selectable setting when listing an auction. Its definitely a nice feature for sellers to maximize their selling price, so most sellers use it. But auctions can sometimes drag on for a long time because of it
That's because of the auction listing interface. Yahoo Japan hosts the first three photos, but if you want to include more photos you have to upload them elsewhere and then link them across yourself, and that's more hassle than most sellers are willing to go through.
You're correct, calling an item "junk" is the seller's way of absolving themselves of any liability. The camera shops here do the same thing. It just means "function not guaranteed, sold as is, no returns, bid accordingly".
Most sellers describe their items adequately, but I've still had my share of problems buying on the YJ auctions. And that brings me to their biggest downside - unlike eBay, the buyer has very little recourse if they buy an item not as described, or get ripped off.
One example for you... a friend (another foreigner living in Japan) won an auction for an aquarium item on the YJ auctions, received a message promptly on how to pay, and he paid immediately by online bank transfer (bank transfer is the standard method of payment on the YJ auctions). The item never arrived and he never got a reply, despite sending multiple messages. After a month or so, I went with him to the police station to help him file a police report so he could begin the process of filing a claim with the YJ auctions. The police asked if he got the name, address, and phone number of the seller. He said no, he never got that information. He just got bank account details and an amount to pay that included shipping. Right there the police said he's screwed because he didn't ask for seller contact details. No details, no case. Its actually written (buried is more like it) in the YJ auctions terms of service somewhere, but of course nobody reads that. So buyer beware, and make sure you get the seller contact details before you proceed with a transaction.
Luckily, there is a happy ending to my friend's story. About two months later he was contacted by the real account owner who explained that his YJ auction account had been fraudulently used by a friend of his son, and he'd only just found out about it. The real account owner took responsibility and reimbursed the money.
Peter Jennings
Well-known
Thanks for your input!
Buying in such a semi-blind manner can be scary, and your friend's story is scary. As a foreigner using a proxy service there is a bit more protection, but they don't inspect gear for you. You must be careful when shopping and, even so, there is always a chance of being taken. If you can accept that risk, there are good deals to be had. I can't say I have had a truly negative experience - as of yet!
Buying in such a semi-blind manner can be scary, and your friend's story is scary. As a foreigner using a proxy service there is a bit more protection, but they don't inspect gear for you. You must be careful when shopping and, even so, there is always a chance of being taken. If you can accept that risk, there are good deals to be had. I can't say I have had a truly negative experience - as of yet!
Archlich
Well-known
Absolutely the lowest price on the planet with an enormous selection well worth the risk. If you hesitate you can always just buy from a reputable dealer like Map Camera - excellent price as well, especially during their annual night market event. I haven't been buying from anywhere else since I started using a proxy.
Unbelievable when you look back at how much we'd been paying for items like Canon 50/1.8 LTM, which in reality is almost free.
Unbelievable when you look back at how much we'd been paying for items like Canon 50/1.8 LTM, which in reality is almost free.
rpavich
Established
Not for me thank you...the risk isn't worth it to me.
bucs
Well-known
Care to recommend a proxy?
Peter Jennings
Well-known
I use Buyee now. I used Noppin in the past. Buyee is more user-friendly. There are many others.
aizan
Veteran
i've had good experiences with jauce.com. haven't been burned yet, knock on wood.
the characters for "mint condition" are "美品".
the characters for "mint condition" are "美品".
mkvrnn
Established
I've just tried posting a new thread under Photography General Interest, entitled "Japanese Auctions -Beware". For some strange reason a moderator saw fit to move it to a different and inappropriate forum, so I'll post it again here.
I recently discovered the Yahoo Japan Auction site, and since my current obsession is Leica copies, it seemed like a good alternative to ebay to try to buy one or two. It seems to have turned out to be an expensive mistake.
The site is in Japanese, naturally, so it seems to be necessary to use a proxy bidder and there is a good choice. I chose Easy Auction Japan (EAJ).
In order to bid it is necessary to set up an account and transfer funds sufficient to cover your bid, via Paypal. The additional costs if you win an auction are explained, and these include postage from the seller to the EAJ office in Japan, shipping from EAJ to the buyer, the EAJ commission, the auctioneer's commission, and possibly a sales tax in Japan.
The biggest problems are as follows:-
1. The descriptions translate so badly into English that they are very difficult to interpret. A typical one might be "It will be wound film. Release the shutter. Mold, such as the oil film on the lens? It is seen. Image please tender only person who can determine a look at. Please have a look, if very well, since it has sent also to others".
2. There is not usually any provision to ask the seller any questions.
3. There does not seem to be any buyer protection in the event that the camera is mis-described or doesn't actually arrive.
Despite these frightening risks I was curious to try to buy something, so after a week of experimentation I finally managed to win a Nicca Type 5 with lens for a reasonable sounding 16,000 Yen, even with the ambiguous and dubious sounding description. It comes with an original lens cap and looks good in the photos so I'm optimistic.
The additional charges were higher than the EAJ estimate so I've ended up paying well over 26,000 yen for a 16,000 camera. In addition I've incurred Paypal fees for the initial transfer and again for the second transfer to cover the additional charges. No doubt I'll also lose out on the currency conversion, and when I reclaim the balance of my EAJ account balance I will pay the same again in Paypal fees. Finally, I had hoped that I would escape UK import duties but no such luck. The camera actually arrived in the UK the next day from Japan but has been stuck at Parcelforce in Coventry for more than a week while they assess the duty payable. Today I paid the bill online and it should be delivered tomorrow.
So the upshot is that I've actually paid very nearly double the 16,000 bid price for a camera of unknown (until tomorrow) but dubious quality. Nobody to blame but myself of course, but I don't think I'll be repeating the exercise!
I recently discovered the Yahoo Japan Auction site, and since my current obsession is Leica copies, it seemed like a good alternative to ebay to try to buy one or two. It seems to have turned out to be an expensive mistake.
The site is in Japanese, naturally, so it seems to be necessary to use a proxy bidder and there is a good choice. I chose Easy Auction Japan (EAJ).
In order to bid it is necessary to set up an account and transfer funds sufficient to cover your bid, via Paypal. The additional costs if you win an auction are explained, and these include postage from the seller to the EAJ office in Japan, shipping from EAJ to the buyer, the EAJ commission, the auctioneer's commission, and possibly a sales tax in Japan.
The biggest problems are as follows:-
1. The descriptions translate so badly into English that they are very difficult to interpret. A typical one might be "It will be wound film. Release the shutter. Mold, such as the oil film on the lens? It is seen. Image please tender only person who can determine a look at. Please have a look, if very well, since it has sent also to others".
2. There is not usually any provision to ask the seller any questions.
3. There does not seem to be any buyer protection in the event that the camera is mis-described or doesn't actually arrive.
Despite these frightening risks I was curious to try to buy something, so after a week of experimentation I finally managed to win a Nicca Type 5 with lens for a reasonable sounding 16,000 Yen, even with the ambiguous and dubious sounding description. It comes with an original lens cap and looks good in the photos so I'm optimistic.
The additional charges were higher than the EAJ estimate so I've ended up paying well over 26,000 yen for a 16,000 camera. In addition I've incurred Paypal fees for the initial transfer and again for the second transfer to cover the additional charges. No doubt I'll also lose out on the currency conversion, and when I reclaim the balance of my EAJ account balance I will pay the same again in Paypal fees. Finally, I had hoped that I would escape UK import duties but no such luck. The camera actually arrived in the UK the next day from Japan but has been stuck at Parcelforce in Coventry for more than a week while they assess the duty payable. Today I paid the bill online and it should be delivered tomorrow.
So the upshot is that I've actually paid very nearly double the 16,000 bid price for a camera of unknown (until tomorrow) but dubious quality. Nobody to blame but myself of course, but I don't think I'll be repeating the exercise!
nhchen
Nathan
I've also discovered these auctions recently. I find that if I have low expectations of what I'm going to get then I end up quite happy with what I receive. I just expect that I'll have to end up taking the cameras apart to replace the shutter curtains, clean out haze etc. And to decrease the cost abit, I just have everything shipped together using sea mail (1-2 months). Although there're no import duties in Australia (yet).
nathan
nathan
Peter Jennings
Well-known
As the OP of this thread, I can't help but feel somewhat responsible. I'm sorry the experience hasn't been pleasant so far, Mike. However, I hope you are rewarded with a camera in better condition than you expect. In my experience, this has usually been the case. If you ever try it again, I'd at least use a different proxy service. I find Buyee to be the most economical and transparent regarding fees. They charge directly to your paypal account only if you win the auction - there is no deposit. And customs here in S. Korea has never charged me any import duty - and neither has U.S. customs when I've had items shipped there. It can be a crapshoot to some extent, but you have to go in with your eyes wide open and be willing to accept a disappointment now and then. I'd encourage anyone not averse to a little risk to give it a try - if the monetary price is reasonable.