Zeiss Ikon, Convince Me

back alley said:
His real point is that for less than the price of a new Zeiss Icon, you can get an extremely clean M6 that works perfectly.

this is a bogus argument. from anyone.

for the same money or less i can buy a camera that is new or a camera that is 20 years old.
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Not bogus to me. Price is a strong consideration and a used M6 and new ZM are priced about the same. I can use the same lenses on each body. I would use each camera in the same manner. In this sense they are in direct competition. But do they confer the same value? Yes, the ZM is new, but its RF design is unproven over time. Are the out of the box RF alignment issues quality control or a design weakness or both? Will the ZM be repairable after Zeiss ceases production? The Hexar RF, a few years out of production, is difficult to get repaired today. Yes, my M6 is 20 years old, but has a proven RF design. (I'm aware of the whiteout issue of the M6/early M7, but it's never been an issue for me). For an M6---out of production---there are spare parts and any number of repair options available. Can you say the same about the ZM? So, from an ownership perspective, a new ZM is not necessarily at an advantage over a 20 year old Leica. ;)
 
patrickjames said:
The camera is a tool. You want AE so that means you buy either a M7 or a ZI. Look through an M7 then look through a ZI. You will not want to look through the M7 again.

Patrick
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Each viewfinder has advantages. For a very detailed and may I say very even handed comparison, see this RFF thread:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20178
 
nasmformyzombie said:
Not bogus to me. Price is a strong consideration and a used M6 and new ZM are priced about the same. I can use the same lenses on each body. I would use each camera in the same manner. In this sense they are in direct competition.)
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You are arguments are circular.
First you state the M6 misses the AE you need. Now you state that the M6/ZI are functional equivalent for you.

You do not need convincing. It seems obvious why you started this thread. :D

Ciao

Joerg
 
Joerg said:
You are arguments are circular.
First you state the M6 misses the AE you need. Now you state that the M6/ZI are functional equivalent for you.

You do not need convincing. It seems obvious why you started this thread. :D

Ciao

Joerg
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I did not state the cameras are functionally equivalent in every way, I was merely pointing out how much they "compete" for the same $$$. As for my motives, I'm trying to get a sense of where ZI owners are with their cameras. Period. I already own an M6, but am not wedded to or otherwise impressed by Leica. See my RFF signature for all of the Zeiss gear I have now (and I've previously owned more). If you want to make more of the post, that's all on you. :cool:
 
Matthew Runkel said:
I think many people here would disagree with you both about whether the argument is bogus and about what they would choose to spend their $1500 on. Obviously, one can often get much more for the same money by buying used.

In any event, should you, as a moderator, be calling someone a moron on this forum, especially when you simply disagree with one isolated opinion the person is reported to have expressed?
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i have never seen a rule book for moderators.
when jorge asked me to be the moderator here it was an on the job learning situation.
i think i'm doing pretty well, all things considered.

as far as mark being a moron, let me say that when i worked behind a counter selling cameras, i never told a customer what not to buy. i guided him through a series of questions to a camera that he could be comfortable owning and using.
is he a moron, obviously i have no idea.
but his leading people with such sweeping comments like - "I wouldnt pay 1000 dollars for something from cosina...not when you can get something from leica" indicates a stronger bias than mine and a not too in touch with leica reality attitude.

joe
 
nasmformyzombie said:
See my RFF signature for all of the Zeiss gear I have now (and I've previously owned more). If you want to make more of the post, that's all on you. :cool:
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Everyone here is a little weary of ZI bashing, particular from people who never used one.:bang: Still you state in your second post that you would use them in the same manner :angel:

I would not argue with someone who also owns a ST, there are just not that many out there :eek: .

Ciao

Joerg
 
back alley said:
i don't have a hexar...
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Good thing. If you bought a Hexar RF new in 2003, you would have a hard time getting it repaired today---less than four years later. Once out of production (2008? 2009? 2010?) could the ZI experience a similar fate? This would be a problem for me. Guys, I'm not a Leicanut! I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 through 2001, but the ZI does not give me the same confidence the Kyocera/Zeiss cameras did. That's what I'm struggling with. I want AE, I want to feel more confidence in the ZI. I cannot pay Leica M7 prices!

Quite frankly, Back Alley, for a seemingly die-hard Zeiss guy you are unconvincing. The grumpy man arguments just don't play that well. ;)
 
Joerg said:
Everyone here is a little weary of ZI bashing, particular from people who never used one.:bang: Still you state in your second post that you would use them in the same manner :angel:

I would not argue with someone who also owns a ST, there are just not that many out there :eek: .

Ciao

Joerg
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Now whos argument is circular? You don't like the Contax ST because there's not many around? There's not a whole lot of ZI's either! If it makes you feel better, I've also owned the RTSIII (and just about every Contax body ever made for that matter; RTSII, 137MA, 159MM, RTSIII, ST, S2, RX).

Bottom line, I'm not bashing the ZI!!!! As I stated before, I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 until 2001. All things equal, I will take Zeiss over Leica. I want to like the ZI! I've just seen too much bad press on how the ZI cameras have performed out of the box. I did not create this information. And these issues were not the case with Kyocera/Zeiss cameras!
 
nasmformyzombie said:
Now whos argument is circular? You don't like the Contax ST because there's not many around? There's not a whole lot of ZI's either! If it makes you feel better, I've also owned the RTSIII (and just about every Contax body ever made for that matter; RTSII, 137MA, 159MM, RTSIII, ST, S2, RX).

Bottom line, I'm not bashing the ZI!!!! As I stated before, I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 until 2001. All things equal, I will take Zeiss over Leica. I want to like the ZI! I've just seen too much bad press on how the ZI cameras have performed out of the box. I did not create this information. And these issues were not the case with Kyocera/Zeiss cameras!
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Sorry for my poorly stated sentence. Just to clarify I do own and absolutely love my ST!
If you like the ST you will like the ZI.
I have no problem with the ZI quality, seems top notch too me.
Zeiss does have a spotty history supporting their cameras in the long run....
We will see........

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ciao

Joerg
 
back alley said:
i have never seen a rule book for moderators.
when jorge asked me to be the moderator here it was an on the job learning situation.
i think i'm doing pretty well, all things considered.

as far as mark being a moron, let me say that when i worked behind a counter selling cameras, i never told a customer what not to buy. i guided him through a series of questions to a camera that he could be comfortable owning and using.
is he a moron, obviously i have no idea.
but his leading people with such sweeping comments like - "I wouldnt pay 1000 dollars for something from cosina...not when you can get something from leica" indicates a stronger bias than mine and a not too in touch with leica reality attitude.

joe
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I thought moderators were meant to bound by the same "golden rules" as the rest of us (listed in the FAQ) and set the standard for civility. This is not to say that I think my opinion matters, that I care what kind of an example you might be setting, or that I don't think you are doing an excellent job.

I'm sure Mark sells his share of ZI bodies. And if you ask his opinion, he will give it to you. That makes him an honest broker, in my view, and a far more valuable person to have behind the counter than the usual run of salespeople. In my opinion, one of the things a professional in any field should do is give advice that sometimes takes the form of "that's not what I would do in your situation" or similar "negative" comments about some of the customer/client's available choices. The decisions remain for the customer/client to make.
 
zombie, do have a name i could call you by?

Quite frankly, Back Alley, for a seemingly die-hard Zeiss guy you are unconvincing. The grumpy man arguments just don't play that well.

first, i'm not a die hard any kind of brand guy.
i was given a zi and 35/2 lens by the members of this forum and have learned to really like both camera and lenses. it was not hard to learn this as they are fine instruments and more capable of great photography than i am.
i am grumpy, for many reasons. but mostly for comments that get passed on through mindless repitition on the net. i think it's amazing how many people here and elsewhere that refer to leica quality and who have never ownwed a stick of leitz gear or those who don't like gear they have never seen.
i am not saying that you have done this btw.

in my lifetime, so far, i have used...
miranda
canon
nikon
olympus
leica
minolta
contax
zeiss
to name just some of the major players so i have a little experience from which to draw and i think it shows that i am not married to any brand of gear.
and i don't work on commission from zeiss either;)

my experience says that the zi is a capable camera and my experience also tells me not to worry about 20 years from now.
it ain't worth it.

and also to be clear, i am not trying to convince you or anyone else what to buy or like.
i'm liking what i have now and what i have now is the zi and some great zm lenses.

my interest in this thread was started by the 'it ain't no leica' comment.
i still think it's a dumb thing to say...

joe
 
Matthew Runkel said:
I thought moderators were meant to bound by the same "golden rules" as the rest of us (listed in the FAQ) and set the standard for civility. This is not to say that I think my opinion matters, that I care what kind of an example you might be setting, or that I don't think you are doing an excellent job.

I'm sure Mark sells his share of ZI bodies. And if you ask his opinion, he will give it to you. That makes him an honest broker, in my view, and a far more valuable person to have behind the counter than the usual run of salespeople. In my opinion, one of the things a professional in any field should do is give advice that sometimes takes the form of "that's not what I would do in your situation" or similar "negative" comments about some of the customer/client's available choices. The decisions remain for the customer/client to make.
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i do try to be civil.
but an example is not something i strive for.
your opinion matters as does mine and every other member here, mine is not any more important though.
in my life and in my moderator role here, i want to be subjective and not objective. the latter makes me run cold. i am impacted by all manner of things/behaviours/comments etc. and i react in the most honest way i can muster. some find this to be in poor taste and i get the odd email tsking me for my ways. i find it human and warm blooded. not always easily accepted by some and even that impacts me.

ok, nuff said!

joe
 
My Argus/Cosina STL 1000 still works great, has never been serviced. It was not expensive, but I do have a $1,400 Pentax lens for it.
 
In film rangefinders of "M" mount, I have owned the M5, M6, M6TTL, M7, & ZI.

I started with an M6, then traded into the M6TTL, followed by trading into the M7. They were all great cameras. I liked the M7 the best, with it's more consistent shutter and less flare prone finder. The AE was also very handy.

After that I got the M5 and liked it even better than the M7, so the M7 was sold. The M5 had VF information like match needle metering and the shutter speed being listed in the VF on manual. It also had clean frame lines of only 35/50/90 vs. the (distracting to me) doubled pairs. It also had a GREAT spot meter.

Next came a black ZI, after hearing all the raves about how great a view finder it has. To "ME", the ZI gives me the "Best" RF view finder made, clean simple frame lines, good metering, faster shutter speeds, AE, shutter speed and metering information in the viewfinder, and easy film loading. Will it last as long as a Leica, I don't know but it is here to stay.

I still have the M5, and am not sure that I could ever sell it. However, when I shoot film the ZI is what now gets the "nod". It is just so easy to use.

Best,

Ray
 
The only thing that would keep me away from the ZI and make me want the Leica M6 would be that the ZI needs a battery to operate while the M6 only relies on the battery to power the meter...

I have never seen the ZI in person but I have heard mostly good things and for the price I think its hard to go wrong!
 
If all you are looking for is a RF camera with AE, buy a Bessa.

Does the ZI have some issues? When the M7 came out did you read about all of the complaints at Pnet?

Bottom line, don't believe anything you read on the internet or the opinions or any others. If you buddy at the camera shop has a ZI to put in your hand, don't listen to a word he says, give it a try. Like anything, it will know for yourself pretty quickly if it will do the trick for you.

You can read to learn some stuff on the internet, but remember, you will hear 90% of the complaints online and only 1% of the praise, and 0% is your reality.
 
When I see these kinds of threads I usually stay away. This thread has gotten way too long. We should not have to convince anyone of anything. We all have our likes and dislikes. Lets leave it at that. Gary buy a ZI.... or not. It's really up to you.
 
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