Zeiss Ikon, Convince Me

[back alley]

When I see these kinds of threads I usually stay away...

you are a wiser man than i...

 

[Berliner]

The zi's a fine M. The finder is amazing. I have had no problems with it. Out of the box, or otherwise. I thought it was worth the price for a new AE M. It has a different feel than a Leica, but certainly not cheap. Mine sits (proudly)in a bag with an mp.

 

[Huck Finn]

I did not state the cameras are functionally equivalent in every way, I was merely pointing out how much they "compete" for the same $$$.

IMHO, apples to apples is the only fair comparison. A new M6 vs a new ZI is a fair comparison. A used M6 vs a used ZI is a fair comparison.

Why? Because regardless of the prices you see on eBay or elsewhwere, you have no idea of the hidden costs (such as a $300 CLA) or defects associated with the purchase of any given used camera. The purchase of a used camera, a used car, or a used anything else is always a roll of the dice. Some people get great buys & some don't. In contrast, a new camera comes with a warranty, so any defects will be fixed for free & if they can't be fixed, the camera will be replaced. That's a whole different kind of purchase.

As for my motives, I'm trying to get a sense of where ZI owners are with their cameras. Period.

I bought one of the first ZIs off the assembly line in November '05. I've had it for 15 months. No problems out of the box & none since.

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[Bryan Lee]

I do find this a odd set of arguments concidering Leica just canceled the digital R9 back after one year and their entry into the digital rangefinder market is proving to be very contriversial when by all acounts the ZI was and is a successfully marketed camera that is known as both functional and reliable. As far as I know the only complaints were that a few needed tuneups and tweaks out of the box but it was a new camera and it was expected to have some minor issues upon its release and they seem to all be resolved now.

Am I missing somthing here? Have there been recent reports of problems with the ZI or only the things from 6 months back?

I could be proven wrong but for now I have more faith in Ziess as a brand and company than I have in Leica. Its a no brainer to me to choose a new product over a second hand one in this situation as you never know the exact history of a M6 thats lived outside of its box.

 

[Krosya]

As some may remember, a while back I was asking similar questions - what to get - a ZI or M6 to compliment my M3. And at times posts got all heated up as well. Long story short - I went with M6. Why? well, several reasons for me - there is no ZI available locally, so I couldn't really "test-drive" one. I hear all praises of a VF/RF, but I would have like to see for myself. Some very nice members here offered to try theirs, but they are some distance away as well. Also, I too was a bit scared by some stories about out-of -the box problems with ZI. I know far from all were like that, but still... I really wanted to have a long RF base and AE, which ZI offers, but final two things that pushed me towards M6 were - being fully mechanical camera - I'm way too paranoid about either battery dying or electronics going bad (happened to me with Canon EOS on a very important trip - good thing I had a back-up body), and price. I got my used M6 for less than 1K and it seems to work very well. Yes, it could use a RF patch fix and maybe CLA, which is in it's future, I'm sure, but even with all that it'll cost me about the same as I would pay for a ZI.
All that being said - I would still like to try a ZI and just to see for myself side by side. Who knows, maybe I'll like it so much so I'll get one. Till then - I'll used what I got - M3 and M6 - both are users, not collectable, but very good users at that. Plus who knows - maybe Zeiss will come out with a newer ZI which will be even better?
Plus , while I don't know about ZI body, I sure like what I hear about ZM lenses. Hey Joe, wanna sell your Sonnar to me? I cant get your pics with it out of my head - if I go broke getting it - it's your fault.

 

[Way]

ZI has that great VF, a fantastic feeling shutter release, AE. Strangely, I rather have my MP's film loading system tham the ZI's.
I love using my ZI!

 

[Nachkebia]

Any leica will last for years and years to come, even M7, zeiss ikon wont, well if you use it but even after this I think zeiss ikon is excellent, I prefer it over any leica as far as usability, aesthetically it is up there, shutter sound is not very nice, film rewind sound is not nice as well not to mention elegance of leica

P.S. whatever back alley says don`t listen to him, he never had a proper Leica (relax, just kidding)
P.P.S Forgot to add why he never had leica before, he better buys whole olympus system for that price and sells it off next week

 

[rxmd]

The Hexar RF, a few years out of production, is difficult to get repaired today. Yes, my M6 is 20 years old, but has a proven RF design. (I'm aware of the whiteout issue of the M6/early M7, but it's never been an issue for me). For an M6---out of production---there are spare parts and any number of repair options available.

I think this unlimited repairability of mechanical Leicas is highly overrated. Even now Leica is prepared to cease repairs on some of their 1980s and early 1990s high-end cameras; the R6 has a mechanical shutter, but Leica themselves say that due to Seiko no longer manufacturing said shutter, they will keep stock of spare parts for maybe ten years, and then they won't repair it any more, in spite of the R6 being sort of a flagship model of its own.

Taking up your argument about the Hexar RF, well, the company that made it has been bought up and out of business for some time, and the camera never sold in any substantial numbers and had niche status for Konica, and given its niche status for the company and in the market it's quite reassuring that people do get it repaired.

If Leica goes bankrupt (which is still not at all impossible given their troubled track record in the digital market, with the pulling of the DMR and the troubles with the M8), M7s will be as unrepairable as Hexar RFs within a limited amount of time, and there will be a lot of M6s without functioning metering circuits, and a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth. So the unlimited repairability of Leicas depends very much on the survival of Leica as a company. If you buy an M7 now under the pretext of it being repairable, you're taking a bet on the survival of the camera maker. I find this not terribly different from ZI repairs depending on the survival of rangefinder cameras as a business model for Zeiss.

However, this is really not a ZI vs. Leica argument, since you have an M6 already, you want automatic exposure, and no Leica will get you that. So there's little gain in pointing out that Leicas are more repairable in the long run than ZIs, because even assuming that they actually are, you say yourself that you can't afford a Leica that does what you want it to do.

Philipp

 

[jgeenen]

Gary, I use Contax RTS gear (RTS II and ST) as well as the ZI. All of them work perfect - despite all the bad stories told on the net. Build quality seems to be equal (I am not disassembling the cameras to proof).

But if you have doubts to by a Cosina camera with Zeiss logo - don't do it. You will never convince the guy in your head whispering about Cosina odds. You might be able to deal with missing AE but never with your subconscious mind.

 

[Huck Finn]

I've read all the threads here on RFF on the Zeiss Ikon.

The M6 is built like a tank, but it's missing something that I like: automatic exposure. There are times for me that fiddling with shutter, aperture and focus is just too much.

I've got to believe most of you Ikon users have owned (or still own) an M camera. Tell me what you like about your Ikon, especially when compared to Leica. BTW, the M7 is out of the question for me, too expensive.

I think that the point of this thread has gotten lost.

There have been 50 posts so far on this thread, but for all the sound & fury, I count somewhere between 12 & 14 posts by ZI owners in response to your question. Of those, only 2 have any complaints with their Zeiss Ikon & at least 10 - maybe 12 - love it for a variety of reasons.

If that doesn't tell you what you need to know . . .

Again, good luck with your decision.

 

[hth]

I bought a second hand Hexar RF 2 years ago, I am currently looking into getting a second body and perhaps sell off one of the Leicas.

As mentioned elsewhere many times, they are just tools. Anything with electronics are bound to fail and be hard to repair at some point. If the benefits, in this case motor drive and AE, are strong enough, I rather use it for the lifetime they have than something else. If/when it breaks and is hard to repair, then the second hand price for another one will probably not be that high.

On the other hand, I am also toying with the idea of downsizing and just get one body that will last for 50 years with 2-3 lenses. I have considered a Nikon S3 for this, but a 0.58 MP is also a possibility.

In the mean time I have rediscovered my Mamiya 7ii and Hexar AF.

Do not worry so much, get what you need and want. You will take chances whatever you do.

/Håkan

Good thing. If you bought a Hexar RF new in 2003, you would have a hard time getting it repaired today---less than four years later. Once out of production (2008? 2009? 2010?) could the ZI experience a similar fate? This would be a problem for me. Guys, I'm not a Leicanut! I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 through 2001, but the ZI does not give me the same confidence the Kyocera/Zeiss cameras did. That's what I'm struggling with. I want AE, I want to feel more confidence in the ZI. I cannot pay Leica M7 prices!

Quite frankly, Back Alley, for a seemingly die-hard Zeiss guy you are unconvincing. The grumpy man arguments just don't play that well.

 

[Les Lammers]

Good thing. If you bought a Hexar RF new in 2003, you would have a hard time getting it repaired today---less than four years later. Once out of production (2008? 2009? 2010?) could the ZI experience a similar fate? This would be a problem for me. Guys, I'm not a Leicanut! I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 through 2001, but the ZI does not give me the same confidence the Kyocera/Zeiss cameras did. That's what I'm struggling with. I want AE, I want to feel more confidence in the ZI. I cannot pay Leica M7 prices!

Quite frankly, Back Alley, for a seemingly die-hard Zeiss guy you are unconvincing. The grumpy man arguments just don't play that well.

I actually think Leica's are over rated. Drop one and see what happens. My ZI has had -0- issues and the finder is great. That said, I'm keeping my lllF RD.
The M7 had its share of issues too. You pay your money and take your chances.

 

[Nachkebia]

Wrong, if anyone thinks Leica and Zeiss ikon are in same league for resistance and longevity is pretty much dreaming (unfortunately)

 

[roundg]

I only played with ZI for a while, but I am a Bessa User and a Leica user. IMO, Bessa is correctly priced, ZI is correctly priced and Leica is correctly priced. You pay then you get what you pay......

 

[Huck Finn]

Good thing. If you bought a Hexar RF new in 2003, you would have a hard time getting it repaired today---less than four years later. Once out of production (2008? 2009? 2010?) could the ZI experience a similar fate?

This would be a problem for me. Guys, I'm not a Leicanut! I owned Zeiss exclusively from 1978 through 2001, but the ZI does not give me the same confidence the Kyocera/Zeiss cameras did. That's what I'm struggling with. I want AE, I want to feel more confidence in the ZI. I cannot pay Leica M7 prices!

This is an excellent question.

With regard to the Hexar RF, let's compare the corporate behavior of Konica with that of Carl Zeiss AG.

Konica never promoted the Hexar RF - at least not outside of Japan. It seemed to be a boutique product from the beginning. I don't mean that as a slight; rather, they never developed a full product line. It was a body, 5 lenses, & a flash, then the LE edition with a new lens availabale only in the kit. They left a lot of disgruntled consumers who couldn't get successful repairs. They never publicly responded to any of the issues that were raised about the alleged issues with the camera & I've never seen a post of anyone who received private communication from them. After the merger with Minolta, they seemed to walk away from this product, leaving repair technicians who couldn't get parts & with no idea if/when they would ever be able to get them.

In contrast, when Zeiss & Kyocera discontinued the Contax line of cameras, they found a company to assume service responisbilities for the entire product line including parts & repairs. You can call ToCad today & get your Contax G1 from 1994 repaired, get replacement parts, & talk with a human being to get answers to questions. I've been to their facility in New Jersey & they're committed to this product.

When Zeiss introduced the ZI, they promoted it in a professional manner. They went annually to industry product shows all over the world. I attended two of them where I handled the camera & asked questions before I made a purchasing decision. They set up a website with extensive information about the entire product line & with an e-mail address to receive & answer questions. I peppered them repeatedly with questions which they answered unfailingly & promptly. When the marketing representative couldn't answer my questions, I was put in contact with one of their engineers who answered my questions fully & completely in multiple paragraphs. When they encountered production problems, they didn't rush the product to market to avoid embarassment. They were forthright about the problems, explained them, & apologized for the delays.

Since the introduction of the Zeiss Ikon, Zeiss & Hasselblad have mutually agreed to discontinue their relationsip in which Hasselblad served as the distributor for this product lline. What did Zeiss do? They took on direct responsbility for distribution & have approached this more aggressively than Hasselblad did by establishing a dealer network who have agreed to maintain inventory of the product. They are in the process of identfying a North American service center to provide shorter turn around time for repairs, cheaper & less compllicated shipping, & to provide domestic representatives for improved direct to the customer responses.

Unlike the Hexar RF, the ZI is accompanied by a full product line. Two years after the introduction of the ZM lens line, it already offers twice as many lenses as the Hexar RF did when it was discontinued & they are supported by a selection Zeiss finders, lens shades, & a filter. Within a year after introduction of the ZI, there were a second ZI body, diopters, & an everready case all available from Zeiss. All of this represents a much more serious commitment to to this line than Konica ever showed towars the Hexar RF.

No amount of reassurance from Zeiss Ikon owners can resolve your concerns about the camera because you're not buying from us. Only through a relationship with the company or one of its dealers can you develp confidence in the product & its support - or decide that it's not the right choice for you.

Rich Schleuning is the Director of the Camera Division for Zeiss America. He has posted on RFF & he can be reached by e-mail at RSchleuning@zeiss.com. I have found him to be extremely responsive, prompt, & helpful. He has gone above & beyond to help me understand the product, get access to it, & resolve my questions.

I strongly encourage you to contact Rich directly with your questions & concerns.

Again, best of luck with your decision.

 

[rxmd]

if anyone thinks Leica and Zeiss ikon are in same league for resistance and longevity is pretty much dreaming

And you can still buy two new Zeiss Ikons if your first one breaks after warranty and you still won't have spent substantially more than on one new M7... For $3500 vs. $1200 there had better be some difference!

But this kind of comparison is rather misleading. For one thing, the original poster didn't ask for it, and then he already knows there is no Leica at all that will get him what he wants for the price he wants to pay...

Philipp

 

[Nachkebia]

Even if you can pay for M7, I still can assure you Zeiss ikon is different for some even better camera (for me)...

 

[Huck Finn]

I've just seen too much bad press on how the ZI cameras have performed out of the box. I did not create this information. And these issues were not the case with Kyocera/Zeiss cameras!

Of course there were problems Kyocera/Zeiss cameras. Just google this topic & you'll find reports out there. I did & they're there. There are problems with every product of any sort.

The internet has provided us with a ton of information that we didn't have access to 10 years ago, but it can also leave us frozen with doubt & indecision because we hear the good, the bad, & the ugly. Remember that when the Contax G was introduced in 1994, there was no internet to spread reports of any kind - nor in 1996 when the G2 was introduced.

You didn't hear of problems with the Kyocera/Zeiss cameras because your access to a customer base was very limited. A site like RFF with its worldwide membership didn't exist during your 1978-91 period of ownership.

Frankly, I haven't seen any "bad press" on how the ZI cameras have performed out of the box. The reviewers have loved it. What I have seen have been internet posts of misaligned rangefinders & a few other isolated problems. In 99% of the cases, the rangefinder adjustment was corrected to the buyer's satisfaction.

 

[Nachkebia]

Frankly, I haven't seen any "bad press" on how the ZI cameras have performed out of the box. The reviewers have loved it. What I have seen have been internet posts of misaligned rangefinders & a few other isolated problems. In 99% of the cases, the rangefinder adjustment was corrected to the buyer's satisfaction.

I am not "press" but you will get the idea and don`t tell me it is normal and don`t tell me I abused it http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32792 shaite my web server is off!

 

[Olsen]

I've read all the threads here on RFF on the Zeiss Ikon. Some problems with rangefinder accuracy, one camera dropped that popped its top, one heavy rotation user that looks like it's been to hell and back. OK, so it's no Leica M. I have an M6 in near mint condition that I paid less than a new Ikon costs. The M6 is built like a tank, but it's missing something that I like: automatic exposure. There are times for me that fiddling with shutter, aperture and focus is just too much. I've got to believe most of you Ikon users have owned (or still own) an M camera. Tell me what you like about your Ikon, especially when compared to Leica. BTW, the M7 is out of the question for me, too expensive.

Mine is slightly off at infinity, but I can't see any ill effect on any (!) of my negatives. I have looked through 'tonnes' of scanned negs (scanned at Nikon 8000 ED) - my eyes are all sore, without finding a trace of unsharpness or off-alinged focus, - at all. So, I am in doubt if I should bother to return it to have it fixed. Actually, pictures taken with my Zeiss Ikon and 25 mm 2,8 Biogon lense is about the best I have to show for... Not only in sharpness, micro-contrast, colour rendition, but exposure...

The AE of the Zeiss Ikon is far more modern and precise than this light meter methology out of the 70' of my Leica MP. Simply trust the AE and shoot away!

Further; I was pritty shocked to see that the old oil lubricated mechanical cloth shutter of my recently aquired Leica MP is close to the one I had in my first camera, a Praktika of the 60'. This shutter won't last more than, say, 100.000 exposures before some spring might break. Particularly if you have to take into account that you have to give it some gymnastics every now and then to keep it accurate at long exposures. - I don't know if I should laugh of cry; this is pritty old fashioned technology for a 4,000 dollar camera!

The Zeiss Ikon has a modern japanese magnet driven, - no springs have to be cocked, teflon-lubricated (or some other modern 'plastics') - nor oil will dry away, shutter that is proven up to 250.000 exposures in other cameras. - No wonder that Leica has choosen this kind of shutter for their M8!

As for the surface structure; my black Zeiss Ikon seems to have the same kind of laquer as my black Leica MP. My Zeiss Ikon looks slightly better since it is newer. My MP, made in 2004, has already been to the factory to have it's viewfinder adjusted (it looks dead on now), it surface cover renewed. How about that?

My Zeiss Ikon's rubber-like cover looks just as prestine as when i bought it in Singapore last April. I have had nothing like the problems as reported by some here, where the cover seems to have melted (or being etched by some chemical...?). Despite daily use in the rain forests of Malaysia and the winter mountains of Norway. Daily use for close to a year and all I can see only a few scratches in the (elegant) black paint around the neck strap rings.

- I can post you pictures from all the angles you want to see of the naked lady. Just give me the word.