Zeiss Jena 5cm/1.5: How much to pay?

[raid]

I saw tonight an ebay auction for a badly looking Zeiss Jena 5cm/1.5 lens with Zeiss lens cap.It ended with a large camera store buying the lens for $101. They will clean it up and sell for $300 [I guess]. I nearly jumped in to get it for up to $200. The lens looks beaten up and authentic. Is it worth $100 when it is optically dirty inside?

Also, would a clean looking Zeiss Jena 5cm/1.5 LTM smell of fakeness? :bang:

If unauthentic, would it be a J-3 in disguise? 😱



Raid

 

[erikhaugsby]

How dirty is "optically dirty?"

 

[foto_fool]

Raid - that lens was going for $42 until I sniped and got over-sniped. I think it was junk and I was going to do my own impression of DAG or Sherry Krauter (hah!) if I won it. Kevin's Cameras has one listed for $425 I think, with cleaning marks, but his stuff is usually overpriced by 20%-50% IMHO.

Are we going to bid against each other for the next one coming up? I'm going to throw down something healthy dollar-wise.

Cheers - John

 

[ZeissFan]

There are three things to consider.

1) In a Contax mount, the lens has no helicals, so one less thing to service. With an LTM version, you have to factor that into the process.

2) Physical damage often also includes cleaning marks, because if the owner was that careless with the lens, it is likely that it was cleaned with whatever cloth or rag was handy.

3) These lenses (even the f/1.5 version) aren't uncommon, so there's no reason to pay good money for one that's beat to hell and back.

 

[raid]

The lens was in need of a thorough internal cleaning. With a $75 cleaning job, the lens still would be at most "second class". If it is not rare, as Mike said above, then the buyer paid too much.

John,
I was just below you in the bidding! The lens just looked too bad to pay more fo rit than $50.


Mike,
I am lucky to have bought a rather rare 5cm/2 in LTM that was put together by Zeiss. You may recall my earlier threads on that lens in 2005. The glass is from Contaflex cameras, as Marc Small and Charles Barringer told me.


Raid

 

[ZeissFan]

Yes, I recall that discussion.

Personally, I wouldn't pay more than $125 for a prewar Sonnar, maybe $145 for the f/1.5 version. I wouldn't pay more than $75 for a collapsible Sonnar.

Luckily, I have all of the Sonnars that I'll ever want or need -- except for the new one for the Zeiss Ikon. In all fairness, I have the Rollei 40mm Sonnar, which has proved to be quite a nice lens. But I'm getting way off track here.

 

[varjag]

I would disagree. At $101 the buyer hardly overpaid anything: sure the condition is not collector grade, but it is (for all I know) an authentic coated Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnar in LTM mount. Soviet J-3s often sell for more than that! A comparable condition Contax-mount Sonnar would sell for more than that also, and those were supposedly manufactured in bigger numbers.

 

[Xmas]

The market seems to be hardening I've paid 50-60 GPB for foggy Jena, perfect J3, and a Western with a single small chip mark, the GBP and US$ are about the same here.

They all seem to work ok, might send the fogggy to a specialist, or strip. The chipped only needs a dab of black paint to be a perfect shooter.

Noel

 

[varjag]

Noel, not sure what you mean by GBP and USD being the same? Surely a pound was over 2 dollars last time I checked..

 

[raid]

The collectability factor plays a major role with LTM Zeiss Jena lenses. The Zeiss lens cap gave me the sign that the ebay lens was most likely authentic, on top of the lousy looking exterior. Optically, it is not a special lens.

 

[Paul T.]

Raid,
i say this as one who is prone to such temptations. But why do you need another 50mm lens? really, why? given all Sonnar types are essentially similar, why would you need another one? Surely there comes a point where it's a distraction from photography!

 

[raid]

Hi Paul,
If I got it, it would be the "little collector" in me. It would not have been the "little photographer". I have way too many 50mm lenses to actually need another one. A 50mm/1.0 may be another toy to explore different perspectives, but it is beyond my reach.

Yes, collecting can be distracting, but I am not really a collector of expensive items. I just hope to run across inexpensive but valuable ones!

Raid

 

[raid]

Hello L39UK,

Thanks for the tip on Zeiss history. I am glad that I did not buy that lens. Today, a similar lens sold for over $200, but it was much nicer looking.

Raid

Hello Raid,
Do not go by a Zeiss lenscap when buying Zeiss 50mm f1.5 Sonnars in LTM. Most of these lenses offered are Russian reparation lenses and were produced after 1945 using unused Zeiss parts but not assembled to the exacting Zeiss standards.All genuine batches of wartime Zeiss f1.5 Sonnars in LTM were assembled and delivered to the German Military by 1943. A genuine batch is Serial Number 2724501 to 2727500 (3,000 lenses which may also contain Contax lenses) which were completed and delivered to the German Military on 29th January 1943.
Do not assume that earlier batches are genuine as the Russians used Zeiss unused batch serial numbers to market their reparation lenses.
If you need further details of all the Zeiss lens batches and which are genuine and which were reparation batches assembled after the end of WW2 you need to consult the following book:-

Carl Zeiss Jena Fabricationsbuch Photooptik II. by Hartmut Thiele.382 pages.
This book lists all Zeiss lens batches and serial numbers in great detail from 1927 to 1991.

Carl Zeiss Jena. Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II. Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Lieferungen an die Kameraindustrie von 1927 bis 1991. Hartmut Thiele. 382 pages, 210x295mm, German text

 

[varjag]

Well, I've seen and handled a genuine wartime LTM Sonnar, and that one too wasn't quite what you'd call an "exacting Zeiss standard" of quality. In fact, it was the worst made lens I held ever. I think modern food cans use better grade of tin that that lens; all the better materials must've been going for panzers or something.

 

[Jocko]

Noel, not sure what you mean by GBP and USD being the same? Surely a pound was over 2 dollars last time I checked..

Hallo Varjag 🙂

There is a curious tendency (often noted with regard to books or photographic items) for UK prices to be double those in the US, so goods costing $100 will be £100 regardless of the rate of exchange. On-line buying has evened things up, but it still very often holds true 🙁

Cheers, Ian

 

[Xmas]

Ian

Thanks for the clarification. Wish it were otherwise.

Noel

 

[furcafe]

That's some interesting information. Makes me wish I could read German (or that the Thiele books were translated in to English). 😛

I have a LTM 5cm/1.5 Sonnar in the 2857*** range, which puts in the right time period, but obviously outside of the batch described by Thiele. It was definitely not assembled to the same standards as my Contax RF 5cm/1.5 Sonnars from roughly the same time period (c.1941), particularly in the fitting of the aperture ring. Fortunately, its optical performance is up to snuff, though I did have DAG give it a CLA.

Hello Raid,
Do not go by a Zeiss lenscap when buying Zeiss 50mm f1.5 Sonnars in LTM. Most of these lenses offered are Russian reparation lenses and were produced after 1945 using unused Zeiss parts but not assembled to the exacting Zeiss standards.All genuine batches of wartime Zeiss f1.5 Sonnars in LTM were assembled and delivered to the German Military by 1943. A genuine batch is Serial Number 2724501 to 2727500 (3,000 lenses which may also contain Contax lenses) which were completed and delivered to the German Military on 29th January 1943.
Do not assume that earlier batches are genuine as the Russians used Zeiss unused batch serial numbers to market their reparation lenses.
If you need further details of all the Zeiss lens batches and which are genuine and which were reparation batches assembled after the end of WW2 you need to consult the following book:-

Carl Zeiss Jena Fabricationsbuch Photooptik II. by Hartmut Thiele.382 pages.
This book lists all Zeiss lens batches and serial numbers in great detail from 1927 to 1991.

Carl Zeiss Jena. Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik II. Alle Photoobjektive, Prototypen, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Lieferungen an die Kameraindustrie von 1927 bis 1991. Hartmut Thiele. 382 pages, 210x295mm, German text

 

[dexdog]

It could be a post-war conversion. I have a 50/1.5 of the same vintage as yours, furcafe. Someone on RFF with the Thiele book advised me that my lens was orginally produced in Contax mount in 1941. The RFFer also stated that post-war conversions to LTM were pretty common in Germany after the war, in both East and West. I have no way of confirming the conversion idea, but only offer the example about my lens based upon the Theile book.

 

[raid]

What is a "genuine" modified Zeiss lens worth?
There are Contax and Contaflex optics sold as Zeiss lenses.
Are they worth a lot?
What are we talking about here?
If Zeiss made such hybrid lenses, are they worth more than if Joe Shmoe did it?

Raid

 

[furcafe]

That's very possible. IIRC (now I know I have too many cameras 😉 ), my LTM Sonnar came attached to either a wartime Leica IIIa (since sold) or a Leica IIIc from 1949-50, but either way, the lens could easily be a wartime or post-war conversion or part of the reparation batch.

It could be a post-war conversion. I have a 50/1.5 of the same vintage as yours, furcafe. Someone on RFF with the Thiele book advised me that my lens was orginally produced in Contax mount in 1941. The RFFer also stated that post-war conversions to LTM were pretty common in Germany after the war, in both East and West. I have no way of confirming the conversion idea, but only offer the example about my lens based upon the Theile book.