zeiss - strike 2 for quality control

[sf]

Don't trust CV. Bottom line. That factory just has very poor quality control. It's a pity, because they would actually not lose any money by increasing their QC. RIght now, they spend a good bit on replacements and fixing things for customers. If they simply controlled their quality, their profits would increase - and people would be more likely to buy their products. They may not produce cameras to last as long as Leicas, but there is no reason why their products should not come out with 100% QC.

Right now, I would be very unlikely to buy anything CV because of the constant unpleasantness. I guess Leica's prices are very reasonable.

If I buy into the 35mm world, it will be Leica body and possibly one of the time tested CV lenses - like the 50 Nokton. But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.

 

[Huck Finn]

Sorry to hear about the problem, Joe. :bang: I'm glad that you'll be getting a replacement.

This question of quality control on this Zeiss line would be an interesting one to explore. If your items came from Tony Rose, then they are grey market & do not come with a Zeiss warranty. There is obviously nothing different in the manufacture of these grey market items, but since they are not Zeiss warranteed, do they come with the Zeiss quality inspection certification? I wonder if they go through the same QC inspection procedures.

I would not get overwrought as a result of this problem. Cosina has developed a track record for its manufacture of rangefinder cameras & lenses since 1999. There have been a number of problems reported with rangefinder misalignment on Voigtlander cameras, so this problem is not terribly uncommon. However, there have been very few problems reported with the manufacture of Voigtlander lenses. I'm sure that Cosina is not using manufacturing procedures with Zeiss lenses that are inferior to those that they are using with their own CV lenses. So, with nothing different, problems such as the one you've described with the lens should be rare. However, we know that Zeiss added another level of testing of prototypes & an additional level of QC to the inspection of finished products. As a result, it's reasonable to expect that problems would be even more rare than the experience with CV lenses.

No human endeavor is perfect, so there will always be some percent of failure. A good process of QC attempts to minimize such problems but they will never be totally eliminated. You can certainly find such reports at www.leica-camera.com on their forum as well. It happens.

It's a shame that you had to be affected twice. Now if you would just stop using those lenses to practice your golf swing . . .

Huck

 

[ch1]

While we're on the subject... is the quality control really Zeiss or is it just CV again under the Zeiss name?? I get so confused by this..

Dave

Dave,

When the ZI was being introduced the Zeiss crowd assured us that this was a Zeiss camera with Zeiss QC people controlling the output. This was the claim even though Cosina was making the camera.

I am curious what kind of feedbacl we will get to your query now.

Edit: I think this about makes up my mind to my earlier thread. If I don't go with the excellent used M6 I will just go with a R2A and save some serious $$!

 

[ch1]

Guarana and caffeine? Nope, we just stick to boring old malt and hops. And brew it to 13.5%.

Right now, I am working on a 750ml bottle of "The Three Philosophers" - a Belgian-style brew from the Ommergang Brewery in Cooperstown, NY (yes, where the BB Hall of Fame is). This particular brew comes in at 9.8% which keeps it smooth.

BTW: this brew is dated and can be "cellared". It not you kid's Bud?

 

[Uncle Bill]

I never had a problem with my Voightlander Lens

I never had a problem with my Voightlander Lens

Don't trust CV. Bottom line. That factory just has very poor quality control. It's a pity, because they would actually not lose any money by increasing their QC. RIght now, they spend a good bit on replacements and fixing things for customers. If they simply controlled their quality, their profits would increase - and people would be more likely to buy their products. They may not produce cameras to last as long as Leicas, but there is no reason why their products should not come out with 100% QC.

Right now, I would be very unlikely to buy anything CV because of the constant unpleasantness. I guess Leica's prices are very reasonable.

If I buy into the 35mm world, it will be Leica body and possibly one of the time tested CV lenses - like the 50 Nokton. But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.

Touch wood product, I never had a problem with my CV 35 2.5 Skopar which is used on my M3. The big question to ask are these particular cameras early production examples? I think I might just save my cash and get an R3a from a legit dealer as opposed to grey market.

Bill

 

[sf]

If you read through much of the material on this forum about the RD-1, Bessas, and now the Ikon, it seems that one really can't draw any pleasing conclusions about CV QC. When the product is at 100%, they have a great product. Their lenses are prime examples of this. They are fantastic bang for the buck - like the 50 Notkon which looks amazing. But, when you factor in their hitrate - remarkably low considering with whom they compete - it is hard to call CV a good factory.

I do say, however, that they don't have bad customer service. I had to return my R3A as it was faulty out of the box, and they must have a deal with retailers that allows no questions asked returns and replacements, because they give me a replacement without regard to whether I had broken it myself.

Trouble with that is, they are wasting money hand over fist as they probably have to scrap a visible portion of their inventory thanks to poor QC. And they are not charging incredibly high prices, either - so they can't be turning the highest profits - not good in this market environment.

Look at the RD-1 : potentially great product, but horrid QC has its effects. If we had 100 potential customers, word of bad QC probably killed 20% of sales immediately, and the next 20% probably had some claim to customer service during their product ownership period. So, they are really wasting market share.

I like their products, I wish they would clean up and fly straight, and I wish they would really focus on product lines instead of these moronic special edition cameras. I know they figure the market is for collectibles now, since digital is around, but I hate it anyway.

Come on Cosina. . . . make us want you bad enough to forget Leica lust. You can do it, you have the lenses, the product designs, you just need to QC, diversify the product mix, and streamline your marketing procedures.

one last example is : take a bad RD-1. It cost how much to produce? Ok, so when you return it for a major flaw, are they going to spend $$$ on manhours fixing it or just send you another one? No matter what, they are probably spending the full market price and then some on lost unit sales and on processing costs.

 

[back alley]

the second camera has worked flawlessly.
the 25 & 35 lenses work flawlessly.

the 50 is a fluke, i would hope. the serial numbers are close for 2 of the lenses.

the camera came from popflash and the 50 from cq.
i in no way infer that either seller is to blame.
both have been exemplary in their customer service.

i had a bessa r + 35/75 cv lenses with absolutely no problems with any of them.

judging from the second body and the other 2 lenses iknow they are capable of making great products.

i was disappointed as i planned a weekend of shooting with all 3 lenses.
the good part is i got back in touch with the 35 zm this morning for the little bit of shooting i did get in today.

and can i remind the drinkers (and smokers) that it is very unkind to discuss what i can no longer enjoy...

joe

 

[sunsworth]

Really tight QC adds cost to a product. Every manufacturer decides how much QC cost they want to add to the product. In the case of CV, if a lens or body is slightly out of spec then the buyer probably won't realise that there's a problem and won't return it. If one lens/body out of five hundred is returned, that probably costs Cosina less than introducing a tight QC regime which would probably mean every item being hand checked.

Steve

 

[ch1]

i was disappointed as i planned a weekend of shooting with all 3 lenses.
the good part is i got back in touch with the 35 zm this morning for the little bit of shooting i did get in today.

and can i remind the drinkers (and smokers) that it is very unkind to discuss what i can no longer enjoy...

joe

Joe,

Well at least you were able to do some shooting today. I got in a total of two pics (grab shots with the F3 of the Copake Clock in color so I can "cheer up" the country avatar from the wintertime pic). No time for shooting today because we were putting in the veggie garden. This included erecting new fences against the illegal immigrant (and native) critters etc.!

As to drinking non-soft beverages - I thought a glass or two of red wine each day was good for the heart?

 

[back alley]

alcohol causes severe migraines now.

i'm being punished for enjoying life too much when i was young.


plan on shooting tomorrow and monday - come hell or high water...

joe

 

[sf]

Really tight QC adds cost to a product. Every manufacturer decides how much QC cost they want to add to the product. In the case of CV, if a lens or body is slightly out of spec then the buyer probably won't realise that there's a problem and won't return it. If one lens/body out of five hundred is returned, that probably costs Cosina less than introducing a tight QC regime which would probably mean every item being hand checked.

Steve

yeah, but I'd bet they get more than 1/500, and maybe . . . maybe they could just go ahead and build a higher quality product to begin with.

There's an idea.

do you really think that putting a checker in place to test VFs for alignment would cost more than $2 per body on average? I don't think so. the VF is the #1 issue, so they just need to attack that one. Or spend an extra $2 at the build stage to ensure that things are in place.

Spread $1500 over 500 bodies, that's $3 per kit, and if they do only get 1/500 back, they would break even in not too long.

 

[back alley]

i thought all the zm lenses were shipped back to germany for individual inspection. each lens comes with a card signed by the inspector. my 50 did!

must have been a friday inspection...

 

[peter_n]

[major snip] But really, I'd never feel like I had a truly great product in my hands unless I was holding a Leica. And QC is 95% of the reason. You know you have it with Leica. You know you don't with CV.

I'm sorry George, but my experience doesn't jell with this. I have three (modern) Leica bodies. They have been, so far (touch wood) awesome. Modern Leica lenses are another story. Very bad experiences with two current Summicrons, and my latest trial is with a new 24mm ASPH. As the owner of several flawless Konica Hexanon-M and CV (yes CV) lenses, I am not impressed.

 

[raid]

dear zeiss,

i love your new zi camera and i think your lenses (the ones i have anyway) are very sharp...but i have a concern.

your camera does everything i ask of it. i am a simple street shooter mostly and your 25 and 35 mm lenses are ideal for my style of shooting.

both the 25 and 35 lenses came out of their respective boxes just perfect, flawless and ready to shoot.

but the body had focus problems and focused way past infinity.
it was a hassle, but i was lucky and the dealer sent me another while i was still packing mine for the return trip.

and now, my new 50/2 lens has aperture blades all over the place. no neat little circle formed so i can shoot my simple little street scenes.

again, the dealer is sending me another lens and i will be returning mine to him.

but this is not good. i have a zi body with 3 lenses...the body and one lens had to be returned and exchanged.

i expect more.

joe

Joe,

I am sorry to learn about your frustrating problems with the Zeiss camera and lens (made by CV). I mentioned before in a thread that it is unlikely that we will get the same quality as Leica M cameras for less cost.

 

[sunsworth]

George, a higher quality product = a higher cost product. Stray too far and they begin to move into Leica territory. As I say, I've had no problems with my CV lenses - and I have 15, 21, 24, 28 and 90. It seems to be the bodies that cause the problem, perhaps because they're based on el-crapo cheap SLR bodies, who knows? I'd bet that CV make much more money from the lenses than they do bodies. Anyone know the figures?

Steve

 

[raid]

High Quality ==> Low Variability. This costs more money. It is simple as that.
If you try to put aside Joe's unfortunate experience with Zeiss as a sad incident, then you may not be acknowledging the fact that there seems to be a relatively high level of variability in some of the newer Zeiss products.

 

[ch1]

George, a higher quality product = a higher cost product. Stray too far and they begin to move into Leica territory. As I say, I've had no problems with my CV lenses - and I have 15, 21, 24, 28 and 90. It seems to be the bodies that cause the problem, perhaps because they're based on el-crapo cheap SLR bodies, who knows? I'd bet that CV make much more money from the lenses than they do bodies. Anyone know the figures?

Steve

What's odd is that I have a couple of S-mount 85mm CV lenses and they are great. Ditto the 28.

So I am surprised that Joe's 50mm ZM lens went "blotto".

I love my two Bessa R2S cameras - but know they are $500 rigs (see my post on the R4 speculation thread) and you get what you pay for.

Issue here is that the Zeiss fans ensured us that this was going to be a great product line because Zeiss would manage the QC function. So we were told we shouldn't think of these bodies and lenses as CV gear - but as Zeiss.

So Zeiss carries the burden here - not Mr. K! It's their production line - not his!

 

[Bertram2]

Out of four items, two had to be returned? Quality Control? what Quality control?
I'll stick to my Nikkors, at least they are not badged as some German brand.
I thought you said" New is...",
Kiu

Well, I don't think anybody is surprised that you will stick with Nikon, must be a kind of religion for you .
Actually the 2 bad of four delivered say absolutely nothing. If that is a statistic value for you to base a judgment on then you missed some lessons at school.
Nikon is fine , I use one too. One has just to avoid tho all the many terrible crap they have produced, like most of their SLR AF primes. Which do not only have a poor optical performance and mechanical quality, but are basically faulty designs, like the 2/35 for example. Nonetheless they are still sold, and that is much worse than any QC probs at the beginning of a production.

When some Leica users had probs recently with front elements coming off nobody
took that as a proof that one cannot trust Leica. Same other probs the M6 and M7 had, light leaks, dust leaks, electronics etc. All that S**T which happened with the Nikon F3 for years, was that a reason to distrust the make in principle ? For CV and Zeiss tho a prob seems to be enuff reason to distrust the make in principle ?

I should not complain about a lack of logic tho, it's not about logic here. People like you simply have to tell us periodically that THEIR choice of brand was and still is and ever will be the best. So what, I think we got enuff tolerance here, even for this kind of statements. If it really helps you.......

bertram

 

[RObert Budding]

Alright, I'll give you that one. Personally, I prefer Guinness on tap, but beyond that there are a few American beers that I will drink. And yes, they come twelve twelve-ounce bottles to the carton.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

I'm partial to Dogfish Head 90 minute IPA. But they come in a 4-pack. Just as well because they are 9% alcohol.

 

[back alley]

not to sour the grapes but bertram is right.
i'm always facinated when a leica owner says his hood falls off, or the front element comes out or there is dust in the finder but...it's a leica so it's ok.

for those beating the leica drum, great, but do your homework too. there are problems with the newer leitz gear too.

and when all is said and done, having owned both new leica and new zeiss gear, there is not enough difference in the quality of the product or the quality of the photos to offer me incentive enough to spend the extra for the leica gear.

the bargains are in the older used leica gear...

joe