ZI: When Leica fans attack...

[Paul T.]

Am I the only person astounded by the amount of disinformation being spouted about the upcoming Zeiss Ikon camera? I can't see myself buying one, but was enthusiastic about Zeiss coming up with a new rangefinder design. Then I started hearing all these stories about the camera being a 'rebadged Bessa'. I thought the people generating those stories maybe had inside information; of course they didn't, they were merely making suppositions.
More recently, on Pnet, some people have alleged that Stephen Gandy's observations that the Bessa and ZI had no common parts bar the shutter, are wrong - or that one can't rely on Gandy because he has "vested interests."

Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Who starts them? People with nothing better to do. I've handled three (non-working) prototypes and shot a couple of frames with each of the Japanese-made lenses (at photokina -- nothing worth posting). I have or have had most of the Bessas and the ZI is very different except, indeed, for the shutter module of the 2A/3A. Delivery is taking longer than everyone hoped, but that happens sometimes --and I know that Zeiss is doing a good deal more than just lending their name. But I can't say anything useful or authoritative beyond that until I have the camera in my hands. Most of the rumour-mongers can't even say as much that's worth hearing.

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)

 

[rover]

Sour grapes because Zeiss is going to survive in tact beyond 2005 and Leica very well may not.

Wait to hear comments about the Zeiss products from users once they are available, and based on actual experience. My guess is that 90% of the comments made online are from people who have never seen or handled these products.

 

[Bertram2]

Will all these attacks kill off the ZI? Or is it a sign of people running scared, because it's going to be a success? And who do you think starts off these rumours?

No Paul, these hate attacks will kill nothing excepted maybe some of those who started them, could be they simply burst from their extreme blood pressure. 😀

I read this crap too "rebadged cossies" was one of the things they said about the lenses and a lot more of such a derisive nonsense. That's just the style of play many members prefer at Pnet.
To understand where this "loaded " style of communication comes from you must remember that there are some who spent their very last penny and a bit more on Leica gear just not only to own the "best" stuff , no, more important to own the "right stuff" !
"Right" means in this context making them belong to the (in their own opinion)
right group of people. In other words these cameras are an important part of their social status.

Taking photographs with that gear does not play a role at all as I had to learn. I've seen results of this kind of folks which are so poorely done and so badly scanned that one cannot believe that somebody really dares to post such a crap in a public gallery.
How come ? The pics are just to prove he still owns the tool and keeps it running.

As we all know people are very sensitive if their (presumed) social status seems to get damnaged. The ZI line could have the potential to perform on par with Leica , without any restriction, for less money.
That would mean they do NOT own the best or the right tool anymore , imagine what a damnage that is for those bed-wetting stuffed shirts. :bang:

This is where that hate comes from, which makes them throw dirt on a product before they have seen it or tried it out personally.

Recently I read: "The Critique says more about the Critic than about the item it aimes to". True indeed, you just have to read carefully to hear that howling sound of pain behind the words. Enjoy it ! 😀

Best,
Bertram

 

[Solinar]

More recently, on Pnet, some people have alleged that Stephen Gandy's observations that the Bessa and ZI had no common parts bar the shutter, are wrong - or that one can't rely on Gandy because he has "vested interests."

I believe the US distributor for Hasselblad will be handling distribution of the new Zeiss Ikon range finder. I can't really see how Stephen Gandy will have a vested interest, as deals mainly in Voigtlander / Cosina glass.

As for me, I'll wait for actual owners to report in on the new camera. That always seems to be the best source for info.

 

[vol72]

I don't understand all of the naysayers especially since the new ZI products have only just been introduced, and most of us have not laid eyes on any of them. Many of the negatively opinionated posters also criticize Leica for producing lenses and camera bodies with attributes different from '50s era products. I guess that buying a Leica (and having an internet connection) makes one an expert; or at the very least demanding of our attention. I love my Leicas, but I am not gear queer enough to ignore the wonderful results garnered with other makes of equipment.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear vol72

Gear queer-- what a wonderful phrase.

And Bertram2: also extremely perceptive.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[RML]

Bertram, so eloquently put!

 

[Huck Finn]

Paul, join us at the gathering in New York on June 28 & meet some real RF fans who don't shout at each other, who are open to others' opinions & information, and who actually like each other & get along. 🙂

Huck

 

[Matthew]

Sour grapes because Zeiss is going to survive in tact beyond 2005 and Leica very well may not.

It's interesting to me that for decades Zeiss has focussed on manufacturing lenses and has only just introduced a Zeiss-branded camera body. The lenses are second to none in the world, in both still photography and cinematography. They continue to introduce entire new series of lenses for motion picture use, both for film systems and digital systems. I'm very excited for the new system.

Perhaps Leica could survive if they concentrated on what they do best, making lenses, and partner with other companies like Zeiss has with Hasselblad, Contax (R.I.P.) and Arri who make camera bodies. At least in the film world, lens mounts are interchangable and you can use Zeiss lenses on an Arri, Moviecam, or Panavision body with little hassle.

Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.

 

[Fred]

The bottom line is its the person 'this' side of the vewfinder is more important than the thing that goes 'click' or 'clack', 'clunk' or 'snick'. You've gotta see the picture first before pressing the shutter release. FED, Bessa or MP, it's only going to capture what it's being pointed at.

In a nut shell different cameras handle differently and everyone will have a preference, give the new ZI a chance and don't pre judge it on gossip from a few Leica Louts

 

[Huck Finn]

Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.

Matthew, Carl Zeiss still owns the Contax name. The Contax G & its lenses was a partnership between Zeiss & Kyocera.

 

[gns]

[Am I the only person astounded by the amount of disinformation being spouted about the upcoming Zeiss Ikon camera?]

It's par for the course. The internet is a wonderful thing, but afterall, anybody can register for a forum and make a post whether they have any idea what they are talking about or not. It shouldn't be suprising by now.

The internet is like a great petri dish for rumours.

You have to chuckle at some of those Leica fans sometimes. When the D2 and Panasonic LC-1 came out it just killed them that the Leica might not be better. And their post over on the Leica forum could be pretty funny. Sometimes they would just give up and admit "Well, I like the red dot on it".

 

[Matthew]

The Contax G & its lenses was a partnership between Zeiss & Kyocera.

Ah. Thanks. I thought Kyocera bought the name outright.

 

[nwcanonman]

Rodger,
Thanks for the hands-on report of facts. Every thing else is merely rumor.

 

[Fred]

Well I'm certainly looking forward to trying a ZI when it arrives.

The long RF baselength +'better' vewfinder with 28 frame + my crap eyesight has gotta be worth a look. 28mm on an M .72 can be a pain.

 

[doubs43]

Face it. There are "Brand-name Snobs" for whom only a few marques will suffice. All else is garbage and unworthy of cluttering up their B&W world.

This entire "Us vs Them" attitude reminds me of a wedding I took many years ago. At the Reception I was cornered by the Bride's mother who, in a superior tone, informed me that the Bride's brother had studied with Ansel Adams and had a full compliment of Nikon cameras and lenses. I asked if he was at the wedding and she said that he was. I then asked why I was being paid to photograph the wedding when a family member of such impressive credentials was available. She fairly snapped back that "He doesn't know how!"...... and quickly left me to continue doing the job I was hired to do. It wasn't my intention to anger her but the snotty attitude she had as she name-dropped kind of p!$$ed me off.

Most equipment is capable of giving good results without regard for the name on the badge. If I could afford one of the new Zeiss cameras, I'd buy one and it could share shelf space with my old Leicas, Olympus', Prakticas, Exaktas etc. If I could fit one of my old Vivtar or Soligor lenses to the new Zeiss, I'd do that too! 😀

Walker

 

[Huck Finn]

I came across an interesting statement about the Zeiss Ikon in the B&H catalogue that arrived in yesterday's mail. Among its features, the catalogue description lists:

"Metal body for mechanical and thermal long-term stability"

Does anyone have any idea what this means? I certainly understand the reference to mechanical stability, but I've never seen "thermal stability" referenced in descibing a camera body. I haven't come across this description in any of the Zeiss, Hasselblad, or Cosina literature about the ZI. Do all metal bodies inherently have "thermal stability"? Is this something unique to this camera? I would think not, but I don't think that I've ever come across this description of a camera body before in a B&H catalogue.

 

[furcafe]

Per Huck's post, my understanding is that there was/is a Carl Zeiss foundation, not a company (not sure about how German corporate law works) that once had (perhaps still does) under its umbrella a lens/optics company, Carl Zeiss, & a separate camera company, Zeiss Ikon. Although CZ & ZI were both part of the Zeiss Foundation, CZ made lenses for all sorts of camera manufacturers, many of whom had no connection w/the Zeiss Foundation (still true today) & treated ZI as just another customer. ZI was the company that used the Contax, Contaflex, Contarex, etc. brands on its cameras. When ZI died in the 1970s, the Zeiss Foundation still had ownership of all the ZI names, including Contax, & subsequently licensed "Contax" to Yashica/Kyocera for use on the revived Contax cameras. What appears to be happening now is that CZ is using the ZI name for new cameras made by Cosina, probably because Kyocera was still using the Contax name when the decision was made to create the new ZI RF's. Now that Kyocera has abandoned the Contax camera line, CZ can always use it on new cameras, including the new ZI line. That would make historical sense, since ZI was the name of the camera company, not a certain RF camera model, but the marketing/hyping of the ZI brand may have advanced too far for that to happen anytime soon.

Am I wrong in thinking that Contax and Zeiss were originally the same company prior to Kyocera resurrecting the name? I'm a bit fuzzy on my history here.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Doubs43,

Wonderful story!

Cheers,

Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com -- and your story explains why there are so few wedding shots on the site...)