RAZOR
Established
I have read that the viewfinder is much better on the Zeiss. I know it is brighter but is the rangefinder patch easier to see and use as well? Less whiteout?
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ZM Vs. M6 Viewfinder
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notturtle
Well-known
I would get your hands on the two cameras to see for yourself.
I revently thought very seriously about switching to Zeiss to fre up some money but recently decided to stick with the Leica bodies because I am more than happy with them. I know them, love them, rely upon them and they have never let them down. I also know their metering. Neither would be a bad choice it would seem so go test them and decide or make a choice based on other sentiments. You wont go wrong.
M6 finder issues can't be soooo bad otherwise pros would not have been making world famous images with them for 20 years. I use MPs, but just bought a M6 (classic). I can see the finder has a little less contrast and the lines are not so bright in bright surroundings, but have not used it enough to comment on whiteout yet.
I revently thought very seriously about switching to Zeiss to fre up some money but recently decided to stick with the Leica bodies because I am more than happy with them. I know them, love them, rely upon them and they have never let them down. I also know their metering. Neither would be a bad choice it would seem so go test them and decide or make a choice based on other sentiments. You wont go wrong.
M6 finder issues can't be soooo bad otherwise pros would not have been making world famous images with them for 20 years. I use MPs, but just bought a M6 (classic). I can see the finder has a little less contrast and the lines are not so bright in bright surroundings, but have not used it enough to comment on whiteout yet.
Tim Gray
Well-known
I've heard great things about the Zeiss too. I finally tried one - great finder but it didn't knock my socks off. From what I hear there is more eye relief and a larger view, but the RF patch can white out more and the meter read out can be hard to see sometimes. I can vouch for the first two but not the second two - I don't have enough experience with it.
f16sunshine
Moderator
The zi has the best VF/RF IMHO.
maddoc
... likes film again.
I have tried the ZI a couple of times and always had problems seeing the RF patch in dim light situations. It might need some practice and experience to get used to it but then I never had such a problem with any of my Leicas. Wearing glasses, the 35mm framelines are easier to see using the ZI compared to a 0.72x VF Leica, though.
HenryN
Member
I have both the ZI and an M6. I definitely prefer the viewfinder on the ZI. Focussing the ZI is faster for me. The contrast in the patch is better and the image pops when I achieve focus. And the patch does not flare like my .85 M6.
Henry
Henry
Harry Lime
Practitioner
The difference is not that radical. They are different, you need to see it in person.
One very annoying feature of the Zeiss is that the center RF patch does not travel with the framelines, as they shift up/down and left/right to compensate for parallax error.
DGA
Well-known
I've found the viewfinder on the ZI brighter than the VF on the M6, that is true.
Still, there is one problem with it which annoys me a bit.
Because the VF on the ZI is so large, the patch sometimes disappears when you look through off center of the vf.
I have the ZI for a year and a half and still suffer from this.
On the leica I didn't see this problem.
The patch is always there for me 🙂
Another problem with the ZI's viewfinder is the light meter scale in bright light conditions - it simply disappears.
Although some will say it is not a big of a problem since you don't actually need to meter light in such conditions
(the "Sunny 16" rule), I sometimes did require having a glimpse of it on the streets (and it wasn't there).
Other than that, it's a hell-of-a-good viewfinder.
Still, there is one problem with it which annoys me a bit.
Because the VF on the ZI is so large, the patch sometimes disappears when you look through off center of the vf.
I have the ZI for a year and a half and still suffer from this.
On the leica I didn't see this problem.
The patch is always there for me 🙂
Another problem with the ZI's viewfinder is the light meter scale in bright light conditions - it simply disappears.
Although some will say it is not a big of a problem since you don't actually need to meter light in such conditions
(the "Sunny 16" rule), I sometimes did require having a glimpse of it on the streets (and it wasn't there).
Other than that, it's a hell-of-a-good viewfinder.
Benjamin
Registered Snoozer
Wow, that is annoying. It's quite amazing that something like that is so often overlooked, well at least I've never heard nor read of it before.
Tim Gray
Well-known
That was my impression. At first, 'WOW!' It's a great *view* through the Zeiss. But in terms of usability, it's ultimately about the same, just a bit different.
RAZOR
Established
Thanks guys, sounds like the difference nominal. I wish I could get my hands on the Zeiss and play with it for a while. I really like the idea of aperture priority and exposure compensation on the shutter speed dial.
You can see the 28mm frames in a ZI finder fairly easily. Definitely easier to see them on the ZI than on the M6TTL I used to own.
I haven't experienced focus patch flare on the ZI (did on the M6TTL), but the ZI finder is large with plenty of eye relief, so you do need to keep your eye centered on the focus patch so as not to lose it. Pretty easy once you get the hang of it.
I haven't experienced focus patch flare on the ZI (did on the M6TTL), but the ZI finder is large with plenty of eye relief, so you do need to keep your eye centered on the focus patch so as not to lose it. Pretty easy once you get the hang of it.
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
I had a 'flare-less' M7 and still had patch disappearance problems. After the first two minutes with the Ikon, patch white-out occurs FAR less often.
papasnap
Well-known
yeah it's not as clear cut as you might think! Here's my perspective, as a glasses wearing 35mm lens shooter who uses both leica and zeiss:
ZI FINDER
pros: very bright, luxurious extra large VF (compared to leica VF), very contrasty, very flexible range of focal lengths (large frame + long baseline @ .72 mag works well with anything from 28mm onwards), shows single frameline on both 35mm and 50mm, shows current vs meter-recommended shutter speed in manual metering mode
cons: slightly akward positioning of metering readout (sometimes need to shift your eye from RF patch to look at precise reading on left of VF), meter readout can dissapear in bright light (not a big problem for me), although in AE it is actually "stepless" it shows only full stop increments on meter (M7 can display to half stop in AE mode, useful for slide shooters). RF patch doesn't shift for parralax correction, although this was a total non issue for me (since in at least 95% of shots I'm using "focus then recompose" anyway, I don't care as long as it's roughly in the middle). main issue: your eye must be exactly centred over VF or the RF patch dissapears. with practice you get it right almost all the time, but it never totally stopped being an issue for me (esp late at night after a few drinks 🙂.
LEICA M6/M7 0.58x FINDER
pros: very bright, decent sized view (def. good enough, but not luxury like the ZI), good for 28mm to 50mm (maybe not super speed 50's though), gives single frame for 35mm only, RF patch always visible (no decentering problem), RF patch shifts with parallax correction, very readible LED shutter speed readout on M7 that shows to half stop, simple but excellent > O < manual metering LEDS on M6 TTL and M7
cons: while roughly equally bright, is smaller and less contrasty than ZI finder. not as flexible for different frame lengths (eg 0.58x mag is good for glasses wearing 35mm users, not good for fast lenses over 50mm). shows multiple framelines on 50mm frame, unlike ZI finder.
BTW I had an M6 TTL 0.58x and personally didn't find RF patch whiteout to be a problem, it sometimes affected the RF but can't remember ever losing a shot because of it. I've since switched to a M7 0.58x - one of the late model ones past serial 2 885 XXX, when they switched to the finder based on the MP. I went out of my way to find one with the new style VF, hoping for a higher contrast view like the ZI, to be honest I don't see much difference between the VF's on my M6 TTL 0.58x vs the M7 0.58x.
Overall, as I'm mainly interested in 35mm length, I prefer the leica 0.58x finder for it's meter readout and the lack of decentreing issues. But I also like having the ZI for the other focal lenths (both wider and longer than 35mm), and for the luxury of it's size!
ZI FINDER
pros: very bright, luxurious extra large VF (compared to leica VF), very contrasty, very flexible range of focal lengths (large frame + long baseline @ .72 mag works well with anything from 28mm onwards), shows single frameline on both 35mm and 50mm, shows current vs meter-recommended shutter speed in manual metering mode
cons: slightly akward positioning of metering readout (sometimes need to shift your eye from RF patch to look at precise reading on left of VF), meter readout can dissapear in bright light (not a big problem for me), although in AE it is actually "stepless" it shows only full stop increments on meter (M7 can display to half stop in AE mode, useful for slide shooters). RF patch doesn't shift for parralax correction, although this was a total non issue for me (since in at least 95% of shots I'm using "focus then recompose" anyway, I don't care as long as it's roughly in the middle). main issue: your eye must be exactly centred over VF or the RF patch dissapears. with practice you get it right almost all the time, but it never totally stopped being an issue for me (esp late at night after a few drinks 🙂.
LEICA M6/M7 0.58x FINDER
pros: very bright, decent sized view (def. good enough, but not luxury like the ZI), good for 28mm to 50mm (maybe not super speed 50's though), gives single frame for 35mm only, RF patch always visible (no decentering problem), RF patch shifts with parallax correction, very readible LED shutter speed readout on M7 that shows to half stop, simple but excellent > O < manual metering LEDS on M6 TTL and M7
cons: while roughly equally bright, is smaller and less contrasty than ZI finder. not as flexible for different frame lengths (eg 0.58x mag is good for glasses wearing 35mm users, not good for fast lenses over 50mm). shows multiple framelines on 50mm frame, unlike ZI finder.
BTW I had an M6 TTL 0.58x and personally didn't find RF patch whiteout to be a problem, it sometimes affected the RF but can't remember ever losing a shot because of it. I've since switched to a M7 0.58x - one of the late model ones past serial 2 885 XXX, when they switched to the finder based on the MP. I went out of my way to find one with the new style VF, hoping for a higher contrast view like the ZI, to be honest I don't see much difference between the VF's on my M6 TTL 0.58x vs the M7 0.58x.
Overall, as I'm mainly interested in 35mm length, I prefer the leica 0.58x finder for it's meter readout and the lack of decentreing issues. But I also like having the ZI for the other focal lenths (both wider and longer than 35mm), and for the luxury of it's size!
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notturtle
Well-known
The 0.85 M6 certainly has its whiteout issues if the area behind the patch is dark and dingy but there is a very bright light source in the overall finder area. The MP is a whole lot better and as you wiggle your eye about, you can broadly summarise it as this (under full on whiteout inducing lighting):
MP - 90% not whiting out only rarely flashes white as you move eye from A-B
M6 0.85 - 80-90% whiting out with flashes of clarity that one struggles to retain as tiny movements take you back to whiteout!
The M6 0.85 whiteout seems much less of an issue outside. Seems to occur when, for example, trying to focus on a back lit person with a bright window behind them or to one side. I guess you would get the same effect with a tungsten light behind. It can be an absolute PITA to get focus on the M6. I gather that the 0.72 M6 is better than the 0.85 in whiteout terms
MP - 90% not whiting out only rarely flashes white as you move eye from A-B
M6 0.85 - 80-90% whiting out with flashes of clarity that one struggles to retain as tiny movements take you back to whiteout!
The M6 0.85 whiteout seems much less of an issue outside. Seems to occur when, for example, trying to focus on a back lit person with a bright window behind them or to one side. I guess you would get the same effect with a tungsten light behind. It can be an absolute PITA to get focus on the M6. I gather that the 0.72 M6 is better than the 0.85 in whiteout terms
In actual usage, this is a non-issue.
Other cameras that do the same thing include:
* all the Bessa series including the new folder
* Nikon SP
* Epson R-D1/s/x
The plus side is that, when focusing, you don't have to "track" whatever you're focusing on to compensate for the focus patch shifting along with the framelines because the focus patch stays put. Just focus then compose.
DGA
Well-known
The downside is that you cannot rely on the patch as the center of the frame.
I did it a few times and got some very "interesting" compositions.
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