M2 - should I ask for a refund?

I agree the two cameras are not the same but I'd still like to see, as others have noted, the ebay listing. Did the listing say the camera in the photo was the one being sold or was it described as similar to the one being sold.

The upside, if there is one, is the camera came with a rewind lever and if it's a Leica version, worth a few bucks.

Hope it all works out regardless.
 
My view is that on the face of it the seller has clearly crossed the line into the "dishonesty" territory. By posting pictures of an M2 in excellent condition (which the one he delivered, clearly is not, from the photos you provided) he has misled you - if not by his exact words then by implying that the goods were as shown in the photo.

The bottom line is that he should have clearly stated that the photo displayed in the ad was not of the object for sale. In the absence of such a disclaimer youa re entitiled to believe that it is the object.

I ask myself why did he not post images of the actual item - well I do not need an answer. One only needs to look at the photos you posted to understand why!

It matters NOT ONE JOT what you paid for the item despite the claims of some posters here. The bottom line iss this. You thought you were getting one thing based on his representations but something else was delivered in its place. This is dishonest, not an error, not an honest mistake. DISHONEST.

For my part if I bought an M2 I would almost certainly never buy a knocked about old beater because that's just not me. NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE. So it does not matter whether the price was fair for what you received - because you did not receive what was advertised.

The question I would ask myself now, is if this guy is a crook (or at the very least a shark) what is the best strategy to deal with him?
 
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I respect Peter's opinion, but I do also think that the issue is not so black and white. The question here is not one of good/bad, right/wrong, etc., as it is being made to sound. I have bought a summicron 50/2 from a reputable dealer off eBay, who said the glass was perfect...except he didn't see those little spots of brown...in several elements. I paid a good deal for the piece, IMO, relative to the amount it will cost to get the lens cleared, if possible.
The question is what to do. I am of the opinion that after CLA the camera will be everything it is hoped to be, if not as gorgeous. We should all aspire to this....
I think a contact to the seller is a good idea, but the legal/structural way of handling through eBay always winds up with mud on both individuals, and solves nothing, often.

For sale: 2002 Ferrari Testarossa, 30,000 miles, needs a wax job. 5,000 USD, or best offer. What does the car look like in YOUR mind? Yes, the price does, relatively, matter a great deal. Right is right, and wrong, wrong. BUt what should you do? You have the camera you have wanted. Get a little cash back to pay for CLA if you can, unless you paid less than it would cost. If you did this, fix it, and laugh to yourself for a long time.
 
Thanks for all your feedback. I paid about US$600 for this Leica M2 (ebay item 320341879134), which I thought was a good price for a 'clean' camera is good condition. With the exchange rate vs the US dollar I find the KEH prices now beyond my budget.
As I said, I wasn't expecting a camera in pristine condition. I already own a couple of LSM Leicas from the 1930-50s and I know what an old camera looks and works like. I have a wonderful Leica IIIa that looks its age but still feels solid and works smoothly.
The problem with this camera isn't so much age as overuse. Even allowing for the legendary durability of the Leica M cameras, I think this could not be described as in 'very good' condition.
In this case, I've let GAS get the better of me. I've learned my lesson, the hard way. Next time I will stick to the classifieds on this forum!
 
You might not be able to get that crank off. The screw might be rusted in place My 1958vintage M2 came with a crank when I bought it in 1972. It wouldn't come off then and it still won't. It's had one CLA and I had M4 style flash contacts installed. It's picked up some dents along the years, and recently the opening key on the bottom won't stay in the up position. A bit of masking tape holds it in place. I replaced the vulcanite with a skin from Cameraleather a couple of years ago. The previous two owners were PJ's, I'm not sure about the original owner. I do know that one of them used it at the 1968 Mexico City Olympics, the other shot the Democratic and Republican conventions in Miami Beach in 1972. I have no idea how many thousands of rolls I've put through it since, but I'd probably be safe in saying that it's earned well over $250,000 in the 37 years that I've owned it. Not bad for a camera that I paid $100 for, but back then you could get a brand new one for $200.
 
The news just gets worse. I just tried putting a film through it and found the wind mechanism slips after about the third or fourth frame. Thought I had an ugly but usable camera on my hands. Now I've got an expensive paperweight. And the seller's emails are bouncing back. Not happy.
 
There's something really strange about this guys feedback ... he's made eight sales in total and all within the last three weeks and received feedback on all of them ... that in itself is unlikely in that time frame. The most recent sale was only just over a week ago and already has feedback ... bullsh!t ... it seldom happens that quickly!

This account has been set up deliberately to sell that camera to some unfortunate for as much as possible ... hence the non representative bogus photos and the crap about it having just been CLA'd.

As an Aussie I'm embarrased at this arsehole's strategy and if I could find out where he lived I have some mates in Perth who would love to go around to his place and teach him some etiquette!

You have my sympathy and I hope you get some resolution ... but if emails are bouncing back already it seems unlikely! 😡
 
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Keith said:
There's something really strange about this guys feedback ... he's made eight sales in total and all within the last three weeks and received feedback on all of them ... that in itself is unlikely in that time frame. The most recent sale was only just over a week ago and already has feedback ... bull****, it seldom happens that quickly!

This account has been set up deliberately to sell that camera to some unfortunate for as much as possible ... hence the non representative bogus photos and the crap about it having just been CLA'd.

As an Aussie I'm embarrased at this arsehole's strategy and if I could find out where he lived I have some mates in Perth who would love to go around to his place and teach him some etiquette!

You have my sympathy and hope you get some resolution ... but if emails are bouncing back already it seem unlikely! 😡
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Keith and his mates: bogan bashers extraordinaire. 😉

The guy that put this camera up on ebay is probably the same sort of person that would put a squash ball in his cricket glove. *ducks*
 
Merkin said:
Keith and his mates: bogan bashers extraordinaire. 😉

The guy that put this camera up on ebay is probably the same sort of person that would put a squash ball in his cricket glove. *ducks*
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Cricket terminology on RFF ... I am impressed! 😛

Back on topic though, I really hate this sort of thing because it capitalises on people who are a little eBay naive and don't really know how to read feedback to judge whether a sale is risky or not.

I have a friend in Perth who's nickname is 'Budgie' of all things. Six feet four with tatoos and rides a Harley ... lovely guy and probably wouldn't hurt a fly if the truth's known. Looks the part though! 😛
 
Latest news: seller said to be on overseas photographic assignment and will accept return of camera for review ... fingers crossed.
 
Keith said:
The most recent sale was only just over a week ago and already has feedback ... bullsh!t ... it seldom happens that quickly!

This account has been set up deliberately to sell that camera to some unfortunate for as much as possible ... hence the non representative bogus photos and the crap about it having just been CLA'd.
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I've had feedback appear as early one day after paying for something. Some people are just very quick at it.

Really, there is no reason for the OP to feel any sort of panic. Unless I missed something earlier, I'm still assuming he used paypal. He will get his money back - with or without the seller's cooperation.
My one bit of advice - when you return the camera, make sure you use a tracking service with a signature confirmation that can be viewed online.
This will safeguard you against the seller claiming the camera was never returned to him.
Shipping anything of high value (over $250) without signature confirmation is just asking for trouble on eBay.
 
There is a question about it working that the seller answered.....

Q: Does all function working good, especially the view lever.. regards Feb-18-09
A: hi yes all is working perfectly. The camera was serviced by the Leica service agent here in perth last August and even the light seal around the back plate was replaced. The self timer and viewfinder frame lever all work without a hitch.

Send it back. You can find a better one here in the classifieds.

B2 (;->
 
Definitely save copies of the page, including the pic, the description, and the q&a. If the guy does not want to play ball, don't be afraid to threaten to involve the police.

I assume you have the guy's name. If he is 'overseas on a photo assignment,' he probably has some sort of web presence, so break out your google ninja skills and find out as much as you can about him. If it comes down to it, find out who employs him, and confirm that he is in fact overseas, and when he is due back. Don't be afraid to play as dirty as he might be. If you refuse to let yourself get screwed, and you show that you are just as willing to screw the seller as he is you, you won't get screwed.
 
Do a PayPal dispute, not an "eBay" or "police" dispute as you have been mistakenly advised.

Just say "item not as pictured or described", don't write a novel. PayPal will force a refund.

Case closed.

Looking at the auction now, I would say you got rooked.

PS: The signature confirmation advice is correct. You could send the goon a rock in a box, signature confirmed, and PayPal would give back your money.
 
Ahmed is 1,000% right, go to PayPal first. PM me and I will send you two PDFs of the listing and the full text of the question and answer. You should download the pictures just in case. Do PaynPal today and then do EvilBay tomorrow. Get him from both ends.

B2 (;->
 
Journeyman said:
This reminds me of a suspiciously similar transaction I was involved in about 20 years ago. I bought an M2 paperweight from a supposedly reputable Leica second-hand specialist in Perth via mail order. The matter ended up in court, the seller lost and was ordered to pay costs. The magistrate even stated that, although civil judgements are on the balance of probabilities, compared to beyond all reasonable doubt for the criminal courts, criminal charges should have been laid and would have succeeded.

Obtaining Property by Deception is a crime!

Nail this seller!

Off topic; Merkin, that's an intriguing choice of name!
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Wow ... what is it about Perth?

Obviously a breeding ground for corrupt M2 Leica sellers!

'tbarker' ... Regarding that guys feedbackl ... the fact that the account has been registered since 2007 but all sales transactions have been within the last few weeks smacks of a setup to quickly get some positive feedback to gain some credibility before ripping someone off! Sometimes, I agree, feedback can be lodged straight after a transaction and I've had that happen ... but the pattern in [his] sales and subsequent feedback is what I was seeing as highly suspicious!
 
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