Gumby
Veteran
You didn't seriously think you were getting hte camera in the first pics, did you?
M2 - should I ask for a refund?
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Bassism
Well-known
Do not be ashamed at all to take the matter up with the seller. Using stock photos and not mentioning the damage in the description are definitely misleading. If it were accurately described and represented, would you have bid on it? Would you have bid, but only to a lesser price? This can be a guideline on whether you should ask for full or partial refund.
That said, from the photos, your M2 looks in better shape than mine. Mine has a dent in the top cover and large portions of missing vulcanite. My 35 framelines don't fully show up, and switching between the rest is slow and sticky. It still works quite well as a camera though. In my view, things like that are part of the "personality" of a 50 year old camera. You might also find that the wind loosens up a bit as you use the camera; mine did.
If you paid top dollar for the camera, then by all means get your money back. If you got a good deal on it, then maybe ask for a price adjustment to cover the cost of needed repair that wasn't mentioned in the auction. That's what I did with a summicron I received with unmentioned internal damage. I originally had a good deal and asked for a little under half of what the cost of repair will likely be in refund. The seller accepted, and I'm happy that I've still gotten a good deal on a good lens within my budget, even though there is some extra hassle and waiting on my part.
However, if you're unhappy, don't be ashamed to take it up with the seller. It doesn't make you a spoiled brat. It's the seller's responsibility to properly represent his item, and ultimately to ensure that you are a satisfied customer.
That said, from the photos, your M2 looks in better shape than mine. Mine has a dent in the top cover and large portions of missing vulcanite. My 35 framelines don't fully show up, and switching between the rest is slow and sticky. It still works quite well as a camera though. In my view, things like that are part of the "personality" of a 50 year old camera. You might also find that the wind loosens up a bit as you use the camera; mine did.
If you paid top dollar for the camera, then by all means get your money back. If you got a good deal on it, then maybe ask for a price adjustment to cover the cost of needed repair that wasn't mentioned in the auction. That's what I did with a summicron I received with unmentioned internal damage. I originally had a good deal and asked for a little under half of what the cost of repair will likely be in refund. The seller accepted, and I'm happy that I've still gotten a good deal on a good lens within my budget, even though there is some extra hassle and waiting on my part.
However, if you're unhappy, don't be ashamed to take it up with the seller. It doesn't make you a spoiled brat. It's the seller's responsibility to properly represent his item, and ultimately to ensure that you are a satisfied customer.
mojobebop
Well-known
you did not quote the price paid.
if you paid a lot, i'd send it back.
it needs a cla obviously.
if you paid a lot, i'd send it back.
it needs a cla obviously.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Seller is a liar, but depending on what you paid, I'd ask for a partial refund for CLA and keep the camera. If seller refuses, demand the full amount back. That is a different camera for sure!
FrankS
Registered User
One of the M2s I bought from ebay,when I unpacked the camera and held it in my hands and moved my fingers, huge chunks of vulcanite fell off. No problem, I was going to recover it anyway with a $19 skin from Aki Asahi.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
I got my M2 from KEH and it's great!
RichardB
Well-known
Here is what you do step by step.
1. In Ebay after completeting a transaction, you can obtain the seller's Contact Information which includes phone #. Find that eBay area, complete the forms and it will be emailed to you.
Contact the seller by phone listing the inaccuries in the description versas what you obtained. Since I have not seen the Listing nor the camera, neither I, nor anyone else can help you in this. It's up to you to decide what you want, cleanest is your money returned, postage is really incidental and if you start out as unreasonable you may not get a reasonable response. Its up to you but all the email cumminication through eBay can be seen by eBay if they are asked to make a final determination.
If you and the seller cannot make a final agreement, then after a certain # of days you can open a dispute, you just need to find the right eBay area among the many eBay menu's. In the dispute you write the problem, what you want to resolve the problem. This is forwarded by eBay to the seller who MUST respond in writing. If you both still cannot reach a satisfactory agreement, then you ask eBay to make the decision and await the outcome.
If you paid by credit card then you have the final option of referring to the credit card company for return of your money. This is the last resort.
I have used all these eBay procedures a few times with general success. I even got my money back when a seller seemed to vanish on a number of eBay sales to various individuals.
In any event, be polite, document each step and be willing to negotiate if not a clear cut case of misrepresentation. Good luck.
BTW, I nail down EVERY detail in an eBay purchase and for a big ticket item like a camera usually insist on obtaining the seller's phone number before hand and talking to the seller about the item and its history.
I offer no judgement here as I have not seen any evodence.-Dick
1. In Ebay after completeting a transaction, you can obtain the seller's Contact Information which includes phone #. Find that eBay area, complete the forms and it will be emailed to you.
Contact the seller by phone listing the inaccuries in the description versas what you obtained. Since I have not seen the Listing nor the camera, neither I, nor anyone else can help you in this. It's up to you to decide what you want, cleanest is your money returned, postage is really incidental and if you start out as unreasonable you may not get a reasonable response. Its up to you but all the email cumminication through eBay can be seen by eBay if they are asked to make a final determination.
If you and the seller cannot make a final agreement, then after a certain # of days you can open a dispute, you just need to find the right eBay area among the many eBay menu's. In the dispute you write the problem, what you want to resolve the problem. This is forwarded by eBay to the seller who MUST respond in writing. If you both still cannot reach a satisfactory agreement, then you ask eBay to make the decision and await the outcome.
If you paid by credit card then you have the final option of referring to the credit card company for return of your money. This is the last resort.
I have used all these eBay procedures a few times with general success. I even got my money back when a seller seemed to vanish on a number of eBay sales to various individuals.
In any event, be polite, document each step and be willing to negotiate if not a clear cut case of misrepresentation. Good luck.
BTW, I nail down EVERY detail in an eBay purchase and for a big ticket item like a camera usually insist on obtaining the seller's phone number before hand and talking to the seller about the item and its history.
I offer no judgement here as I have not seen any evodence.-Dick
dee
Well-known
It has no relevance how much you paid - it is not the camera in the photo .
This is misrepresentation .
Take your own pictures of it and return it .
dee
This is misrepresentation .
Take your own pictures of it and return it .
dee
bob338
Well-known
why wouldn't he expect to get the camera in the picture? the one he got looks like a piece of crap while the auction photo looks very nice.
i would send it back and leave the guy a negative. this is very clearly misrepresentation.
bob
pkuglin
Established
Before you do anything decide what you want. Is the camera for you? Does it just need to be CLA'ed and maybe a new cover? If so decide how much it is worth to you and discuss with seller that is is not the same as described in the auction and get a partial refund.
If this isn't the camera for you discuss a full refund. You must be happy with it or you will always be unhappy and it will get worse...
If this isn't the camera for you discuss a full refund. You must be happy with it or you will always be unhappy and it will get worse...
iamzip
Ambitious, but rubbish
Here is my take on it:
I would say that it depends on the price paid plus your expectations. What I mean by this is, sometimes I will take chances on an item that is poorly described if it is going for a bargain price. This is because I have been buying on ebay long enough and understand that I might get a piece of junk - or I might get a bargain. So, applied to your situation, if you paid $50 for it, you might consider keeping it and getting it CLA'd 😀. If you paid something along the lines of what should be expected for the camera shown in the listing - in other words if you did not get a great deal - I would probably return it.
Of course, even if you did pay a bargain price I think you would probably be within your rights to ask for a refund, but it might not be the most prudent course of action.
I would say that it depends on the price paid plus your expectations. What I mean by this is, sometimes I will take chances on an item that is poorly described if it is going for a bargain price. This is because I have been buying on ebay long enough and understand that I might get a piece of junk - or I might get a bargain. So, applied to your situation, if you paid $50 for it, you might consider keeping it and getting it CLA'd 😀. If you paid something along the lines of what should be expected for the camera shown in the listing - in other words if you did not get a great deal - I would probably return it.
Of course, even if you did pay a bargain price I think you would probably be within your rights to ask for a refund, but it might not be the most prudent course of action.
Bingley
Veteran
I'm yet another satisfied KEH customer. I got an M2 from them last August, rated bargain condition, for a good price. The camera arrived in perfect working order and better cosmetic condition than I'd imagined. A few pieces of vulcanite were missing, but that was no problem. I knew the camera was user anyway, and I'll get it recovered eventually.
KEH has a liberal return policy and they're also willing to make price adjustments. I recently bought an R3A from them, rated LN- , and it arrived w/ a rangefinder out of vertical alignment. I negotiated a price concession w/ them, and kept the camera. Good people to deal w/. I will buy from them in the future.
Whatever you decide to do w/ this particular M2, I strongly recommend looking beyond ebay for future purchases.
oldoc
oldoc
Depends on the price. If, for instance, you got it for 250.00 USD or so, just send it for a CLA, and you still beat the heck outta the system.
Right or wrong, you got a great camera (I know, I own one I bought on eBay from a much better seller than you apparently brushed with).
If you paid in excess of 500.00 to 550.00, then I would take it up with the seller and eBay.
Bu remember, you have a GREAT camera, that will still be a great camera after it is cleaned, etc. Just get them to give you an estimate first, and if reasonable, do it, and enjoy it. Not worth the agony
But you do, I repeat, have a fine piece, and if you bought it for a "steal", then caveat emptor.
Not worth any agony.
Michael
Shame on the seller.
Post his location on the forum...
Right or wrong, you got a great camera (I know, I own one I bought on eBay from a much better seller than you apparently brushed with).
If you paid in excess of 500.00 to 550.00, then I would take it up with the seller and eBay.
Bu remember, you have a GREAT camera, that will still be a great camera after it is cleaned, etc. Just get them to give you an estimate first, and if reasonable, do it, and enjoy it. Not worth the agony
But you do, I repeat, have a fine piece, and if you bought it for a "steal", then caveat emptor.
Not worth any agony.
Michael
Shame on the seller.
Post his location on the forum...
Gumby
Veteran
Logic, perhaps. The description and the picture don't match that well. For one, there is no "wear around the strap lug" in the pictures.
Everyone hopes to get the deal of a lifetime, but most would question those pictures and a description of "very nice condition" versus an equally terse description of "NIB" or "Mint".
Not knowing the details it is difficult to know if it was a reasonably good deal or a real screw-job. As others have said, it depends on the price.
And, Bob... y ou don't seriously think that looks like a "piece of cr@p", do you? It looks like a 50 or 60 year old used camera with wear around the strap lugs to me.
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aizan
Veteran
holy crap, that's obscene. who is the crook, i mean, the "seller"?
bob338
Well-known
i'd call this a screw job. do you think KEH would describe this as anything better than Bargain? no way. there is considerable wear on the right lug, maybe dents too, and it just looks generally worn. it also has a rewinder on it, so it likely was used by a PJ or at least someone who shot enough to warrant one.
obviously, we haven't seen the original auction page, so we don't really know what it says or what the sellers feedback looks like, but i think this is an out right rip-off. if i was buying a user and compensating for the cost of a rebuild this would be fine, but with that picture in the description, i would expect it to look and function a little nicer than it does.
had the seller described it as a former PJs camera with considerable wear, he would probably have gotten the same amount of money for it!
and yes, i do think it looks like a piece of crap. if I had worn it out to that point, i would call it beautiful. but it's someone elses abuse that has made it into a heavily used CLA candidate...
bob
ps--the pictures of the actual camera ARE of a "very nice condition" camera on ebay. people have no idea how to describe cameras honestly on ebay.
Nokton48
Veteran
Lighting the product has alot to do with that. Would like to see the first camera, shot with hard light from straight flash. It was obviously photographed inside a light tent, so how would the camera he got look photographed that way? Probably much better. I think it's all about price, and whether you are OK with the wearmarks.
Also if you got an accessory rewinder, those can go for $75 no problem. That could give you a bit of leverage, in itself, depending on what you paid.
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Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
It's not the same camera - look at the screw head and retainer hole positions.
Gumby
Veteran
OK, thanks for confirming that. I can respect your opinion. You are correct that most people on ebay don't know how to describe a camera (and many other items also). That is why I'm especially cautious of pics not matching descriptions... and generally don't bid if they seem to differ. In this situation I would have not bid and looked for another option.