JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
I am basically in agreement, with the exception that if I were truly convinced that the M8.2 shutter were more reliable, I'd strongly consider an upgrade. I'm not, and the upgrade cost probably isn't much different from the cost of an out-of-warranty shutter replacement, so I haven't "upgraded" to the .2 flavor.
BTW, those who've been around the block a few times will recognize this debate (the M8 vs. M8.2 debate, not the M8.x vs. M9 debate).
John
BTW, those who've been around the block a few times will recognize this debate (the M8 vs. M8.2 debate, not the M8.x vs. M9 debate).
John
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
The shutter is damned noisy though and just how noisy ... even surprised me recently.
I was photographing the speakers at a recent gallery exhibition opening and was crouched down to the right of the spot they were adressing the patrons from ... on the opposite side of the room was a guy with a DSLR also not using flash so obviously something decent and with fast glass because it was pretty dark. We were both firing off a frame every second or so throughout the speeches and I have to say that I could barely hear the 'schlick' of the DSLR ... but the M8 fair echoed around the gallery and a couple of patrons did glance my way!
I was photographing the speakers at a recent gallery exhibition opening and was crouched down to the right of the spot they were adressing the patrons from ... on the opposite side of the room was a guy with a DSLR also not using flash so obviously something decent and with fast glass because it was pretty dark. We were both firing off a frame every second or so throughout the speeches and I have to say that I could barely hear the 'schlick' of the DSLR ... but the M8 fair echoed around the gallery and a couple of patrons did glance my way!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
That is a red herring used only by owners who
a: Haven't twigged to the fact that the M8 is basically a manual camera.
b: Havent't twigged to the fact that using the camera on manual is a magnitude more precise and fast than any exposure compensation gizmo could ever be.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Basically a manual camera ... ???
Obviously why they gave it an excellent auto exposure system along with all those other manufacturers who gave their basically manual cameras very effective AE!
Being able to look at a backlit scene and know through experience how much exposure compensation to apply in AE will get a shot taken more quickly than manual metering every time. Not with the M8 of course though because they weren't astute enough to make exposure compensation an instinctive simple action ... they had to put it in a damned menu.
The AE locking system works effectively though I must admit ... for a predominantly manual camera!
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
And that is exactly why you get those little red arrows dot+ arrow is one half stop - just arrow - one stop - any click will take you further. Just think M6... Fastest method ever devised.
Fastest method ever devised.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
for 'normal' backlit subjects, subtract 1.5 stop, for high contrast backlit, subtract two stops and you're within range 9 out of 10 times.
I bracket using the aperture ring when not totally certain.
In-camera exposure compensation, I cannot be bothered with.
I bracket using the aperture ring when not totally certain.
In-camera exposure compensation, I cannot be bothered with.
Ken Shipman
Well-known
I don't understand this haggling about exposure compensation. Quick exp comp was made available through firmware for both the M8 & 8.2 when the 8.2 was released. Press the shutter slightly and rotate the back dial. No menu needed. How soon we have forgotten. Or maybe I'm missing your point.
dfoo
Well-known
Seems quicker to me to adjust the aperture, or shutter
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Had no intention of turning this into a debate over the value of using exposure compensation versus manual operation. If they'd left the light meter or LCD screen off the camera, someone would be chiming in about how much better that makes the camera. And that's great. Everyone has their own preferences.
But, just because you have a different way of working, why be so dismissive of other people's preferences? And what does that really have to do with the argument about whether or not the M8.2 is far superior to the M8?
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
Interesting. I guess it's not working on my camera. And I've installed the latest firmware.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
No intention to be dismissive.
Ken Shipman
Well-known
Took me awhile to get the touch. The shutter button has 3 electronic stops. If the red dot comes on indicating locked exposure then you've pushed too far to the second stop. You have to push ever so slightly to the first stop to activate the exp comp. Takes some practice, but once you understand it and get the touch it works fine.
Ben Z
Veteran
Do you have an M8 and is it working on yours? I was led to believe the quick exp comp was one feature not available on upgrade on the M8. Auto-ISO at first, and later Discreet Mode, yes. Can't say I've ever used exp comp on any camera, but if it's there on my M8 I'd like to know how to activate it.
Ken Shipman
Well-known
No, sold my M8 a few months back and have only the 8.2 now. You might be right, Ben - I have no way of confirming now.
swoop
Well-known
I don't think prices will drop much.
I have an original M8 that was upgraded with the M8.2 shutter and framelines. And also has griptac on it. I'm not letting it go for less than $3k.
I have an original M8 that was upgraded with the M8.2 shutter and framelines. And also has griptac on it. I'm not letting it go for less than $3k.
I can see $3K for a Leica M8.2 and $2K for an M8.
I hope that Leica offers an aggressive trade in program for the M9, refurbishes the M8 and M8.2 and sells then with a warranty. That will keep value up, and provide a lower-cost alternative to the M9 without interfering with production capacity. A full-frame M9 is going to be popular.
I hope that Leica offers an aggressive trade in program for the M9, refurbishes the M8 and M8.2 and sells then with a warranty. That will keep value up, and provide a lower-cost alternative to the M9 without interfering with production capacity. A full-frame M9 is going to be popular.
Steve Ash
Established
I'm taking that some people do not think the price for a used M8 or M8.2 will fall that low.
I've worked as a computer engineer in the Optical Sciences Division and started out working the electronics of a 32-element thermal Infrared Digital Sensor in 1981. Realistically, nothing depreciates faster than Digital anything. It's always "yesterday's news" and it's not collectible. The new stuff marches on to a steady stream of progress, and the old stuff is not as capable as what replaces it. The old stuff will hopefully be as good as it ever was. But electronic components are not as easily repaired as mechanical works. You just can't flood clean it back into operation. Classic film cameras feel "classic" and that appeals to some- like me.
Buy a digital camera because you want it for the here and now, and know it is not the lifetime purchase of an M3 or MP. It's going to depreciate quickly as the new stuff supersedes it. My $12,000 DCS200 is worth about $50 these days, the $7,000 E3 worth maybe ~$100, and $6,500 D1x- at least most people have heard of those.
Checked my "Camera stuff account", could get an M9 if I wanted one. I suspect waiting a year will add an F1.1 Nokton for the same money.
I've worked as a computer engineer in the Optical Sciences Division and started out working the electronics of a 32-element thermal Infrared Digital Sensor in 1981. Realistically, nothing depreciates faster than Digital anything. It's always "yesterday's news" and it's not collectible. The new stuff marches on to a steady stream of progress, and the old stuff is not as capable as what replaces it. The old stuff will hopefully be as good as it ever was. But electronic components are not as easily repaired as mechanical works. You just can't flood clean it back into operation. Classic film cameras feel "classic" and that appeals to some- like me.
Buy a digital camera because you want it for the here and now, and know it is not the lifetime purchase of an M3 or MP. It's going to depreciate quickly as the new stuff supersedes it. My $12,000 DCS200 is worth about $50 these days, the $7,000 E3 worth maybe ~$100, and $6,500 D1x- at least most people have heard of those.
Checked my "Camera stuff account", could get an M9 if I wanted one. I suspect waiting a year will add an F1.1 Nokton for the same money.
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Couldn't agree more.
Same with electronic analog cameras I guess. No matter how central their role in photographic history, and no matter how great their value as photographic tools, the more electronic a camera, the less it is going to keep its monetary value. Over here the average Nikon F4 already sells for the same or less as an F2, and Nikons tend to keep their value a bit better it seems; a Canon T90 will probably always be worth less than an F-1n, even though it the T90 is an epoch-making camera and you can do much more with it photographically than with a barebones F-1n. The only exception to this rule may be years down the road, when they'll be approaching the end of their lifetimes and few of them will be left in functioning shape, but then you have to hope that yours will be among those that are left.
If Leica manages to create a collectors' market for digital items, my hat is off to them; so far I don't think anyone has managed to do so. Feel free to convince me otherwise, (and if you do I've got a nice Mac SE/30 with 36 MB RAM, A/UX, and network adapter you might be interested in)
Same with electronic analog cameras I guess. No matter how central their role in photographic history, and no matter how great their value as photographic tools, the more electronic a camera, the less it is going to keep its monetary value. Over here the average Nikon F4 already sells for the same or less as an F2, and Nikons tend to keep their value a bit better it seems; a Canon T90 will probably always be worth less than an F-1n, even though it the T90 is an epoch-making camera and you can do much more with it photographically than with a barebones F-1n. The only exception to this rule may be years down the road, when they'll be approaching the end of their lifetimes and few of them will be left in functioning shape, but then you have to hope that yours will be among those that are left.
If Leica manages to create a collectors' market for digital items, my hat is off to them; so far I don't think anyone has managed to do so. Feel free to convince me otherwise, (and if you do I've got a nice Mac SE/30 with 36 MB RAM, A/UX, and network adapter you might be interested in
)Benjamin Marks
Veteran
When the RD-1 was announced back in 2004, I was very excited to have a digital platform for my M-mount lenses. I ran out and bought one, not right away, but after the early adopters had pronounced the camera "good enough." I liked the camera, but chaffed at the limitations of the short-base RF. Despite many good pictures, I could not used some of my favorite lenses. When the M8 came out, I think I waited a full year before buying -- there were more severe initial release problems with the M8 - the IR issue, the dreaded "green band" of pixels problem, various firmware glitches. Things settled down after about a year and I bought one -- and have been pretty darn happy with the results. I know folks have a problem with high-ISO performance -- in general I have not and even if the high ISO performance is not up to that of the D3, I have been very happy. I am one of those who actually sees the possibility of an M9 release as a chance to pick up another M8 at around half of its new price. So we will see. Now that I have a platform for the lenses that I like, I am less concerned with the latest and greatest model. It would be nice for the old pocket book to skip a generation or two of these digi-cams and wait for a quantum leap in IQ over the current lot. For instance, it was not at all clear when the D3x came out that the "improvements" were going to be useful to me. Not even tempted. The first tingle of temptation has been the new Sony 850 and then mostly because of the anti-shake feature at the film plane. Still, prices seem to be coming down for these features and I bet in 5 years there will be more choices than we now have on all of these fronts.
If Leica does announce a fancy new M9, I'm betting that regardless of specs the price will be north of $5,000. That certainly seems to be the trend on their new lenses and the S2 -- the sense of the Leica product line stratospherically out of my economic reach that I had in college 20 years ago has returned with a vengeance. For my part, I wish them luck. I'd like for there to be a platform for my wonderful glass when my economic fortunes again cross the Leica price point at some future moment.
Ben Marks
If Leica does announce a fancy new M9, I'm betting that regardless of specs the price will be north of $5,000. That certainly seems to be the trend on their new lenses and the S2 -- the sense of the Leica product line stratospherically out of my economic reach that I had in college 20 years ago has returned with a vengeance. For my part, I wish them luck. I'd like for there to be a platform for my wonderful glass when my economic fortunes again cross the Leica price point at some future moment.
Ben Marks