Why the overbuilt digital M is flawed and why we need less expensive alternatives.

A sub 2k rangefinder is possible but the reason I think it hasn't been done is that the market just isn't big enough to justify the development costs. So Leica has the market all to itself...

It would be nice if you could actually upgrade the digital Ms like we were promised...
 
Tikkis said:
Well, using the lens pricing as an analogy, the Zeiss Digital body would cost around half of the price of Leica M9 and similarly a Voigtländer digital body only quarter of the price of M9.

I would think that at least Voigtländer priced like that would stir quite an interest among serious photographers.

Jukka Tikkanen
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But can you use that same analogy? Epson (created in conjunction with VC) still sells their outdated 6 mp rangefinder (sorry R-D1 lovers) for over $3000 in Japan. If they were to make a full frame model... it isn't going to be $3000.

Of course it would stir up interest... I would love it. Unfortunately, it isn't reality.
 
Well, leica has to pay for research and development and small scale production. The big names really have so many more resources and grand scale of production. Leica's price is really probably related to staying alive as a company and we all want that don't we?

It's their company scale that makes it improbable for Canon or others to make rangefinders. They are interested in their largest market, not an arts and craft market for Leicas. Besides, no company like Canon really wants to make the perfect camera...they only want to keep making the next best thing.
 
Those who believe in new, cheap digi RFs need only follow these simple steps:

1 Design it

2 Get financial backing

3 Build it

If the market is as big as they think, they'll be millionaires soon enough.

Cheers,

R.
 
There is something terminally sad and pathetic about these threads based around 'Leica make me a much cheaper camera, and built to my own specifications'.

If that wasn't an honest enough assesment of the thread, I'll go further. If the Leica M9 (or M8) didn't exist I'm fairly sure photographers would be using something else, and the something else is already out there, waiting to be bought, and much cheaper than an M9. That's your answer to the whole problem. If Panasonic come out with a 'rangfinder style' camera for Photokina, great, but its not worth worrying about until then.

Steve
 
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In business, you can make a market or react to a market.

The Leica M3 made a market...50 years ago. The M8 reacted to a market...but hampered by the M3 legacy, from the M-mount to the RF.

In modern times, Pany and Oly made the u4/3 EVIL market. While the Samsung NX and Sony NEX are not yet EVIL, they will soon be. Meanwhile, their APS-C sensor is larger...

What if the DSLR alternative that Nikon's president spoke about is a FF EVIL?

I had long opined that when digital reaches FF, there will be a truce because larger sensor means new larger image circle lenses...Leica knows that but did the S2 anyway. The S2 might make a new market or break Leica.

Meanwhile, before Zeiss and CV got into the game, Leica has a reprieve...supported by the pocket books of eager Leicaphiles.

EVIL will soon rule, even RFF...
 
Frankie said:
In business, you can make a market or react to a market.

The Leica M3 made a market...50 years ago. The M8 reacted to a market...but hampered by the M3 legacy, from the M-mount to the RF.

In modern times, Pany and Oly made the u4/3 EVIL market. While the Samsung NX and Sony NEX are not yet EVIL, they will soon be. Meanwhile, their APS-C sensor is larger...

What if the DSLR alternative that Nikon's president spoke about is a FF EVIL?

I had long opined that when digital reaches FF, there will be a truce because larger sensor means new larger image circle lenses...Leica knows that but did the S2 anyway. The S2 might make a new market or break Leica.

Meanwhile, before Zeiss and CV got into the game, Leica has a reprieve...supported by the pocket books of eager Leicaphiles.

EVIL will soon rule, even RFF...
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Of course there are no small independent companies making idiosyncratic niche products for those who want them: Morgan, Bristol, Hesketh and the like don't exist, and everyone buys Fords and Hondas. And no-one pays the premium for Levis 501s over Wal-Mart jeans.

Cheers,

R.
 
Frankie said:
In business, you can make a market or react to a market.

The Leica M3 made a market...50 years ago. The M8 reacted to a market...but hampered by the M3 legacy, from the M-mount to the RF.

In modern times, Pany and Oly made the u4/3 EVIL market. While the Samsung NX and Sony NEX are not yet EVIL, they will soon be. Meanwhile, their APS-C sensor is larger...

What if the DSLR alternative that Nikon's president spoke about is a FF EVIL?

I had long opined that when digital reaches FF, there will be a truce because larger sensor means new larger image circle lenses...Leica knows that but did the S2 anyway. The S2 might make a new market or break Leica.

Meanwhile, before Zeiss and CV got into the game, Leica has a reprieve...supported by the pocket books of eager Leicaphiles.

EVIL will soon rule, even RFF...
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An insightful summary.

I do believe the days of the SLR are numbered also. EVIL addresses many of the issues where SLRs have the edge over RF. Framing, use with telephoto lenses and use with macro lenses come to mind. Plus you get all the benefits that come from a mirror less design, especially with regards to lens design, never mind mirror slap.

It will be a while before electronic viewfinders will ever become a pleasure to use, but the discomfort will be balanced by the convenience of a less bulky camera with less bulky lenses.

I am pretty sure I will still be shooting film on my M3 or M6 and enjoying it more than digital, but I can easily imagine retiring my dSLR for an EVIL. So much the better if it can share the rangefinder lenses.
 
buzzardkid said:
And that coming from the man who was going to defeat Leica at their own digital RF game... tsss.

From this I gather the project came to a grinding and silent halt? Or are we to expect the alternative digital RF on Photokina? 😉

Update please!🙄
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I never cared about defeating Leica at whatever silly game. I was only interested in a dM retrofit project to keep my early retirement interesting...perhaps also make some fun money resurrecting pre-M8 mint-condition-perfect-in-a-box starve to death [of film] M bodies. Meanwhile, I acquired an M6 body for studying the meter contacts.

As I had posted before, the go/no-go decision will be made after Photokina 2010. It will be no go if Zeiss offers a dZI [that is all I had wanted to begin with, Leicaphiles film-addicts can fend for themselves].

AND, ever since the Sony NEX announcement followed by Nikon president talking EVIL, I am also keen on more Nikon FF EVIL news.

The dead M-bodies will be just as dead, and Mr. K is still just as uninterested... I was told again and again.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Those who believe in new, cheap digi RFs need only follow these simple steps:

1 Design it

2 Get financial backing

3 Build it

If the market is as big as they think, they'll be millionaires soon enough.

Cheers,

R.
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Sounds simple in principal, but do we really want the masses all running around with out niche products we appreciate for what they offer us? A cheap Leica rangefinder for the masses will ruin it's whole reputation, at least in my eyes.
 
leicashot said:
A cheap Leica rangefinder for the masses will ruin it's whole reputation, at least in my eyes.
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You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree.

If you mean that Leicas will sell (used) for much cheaper than they are now, I agree with you. If masses start using Leicas, I think it will improve the reputation.

Dan.
 
hipsterdufus said:
I agree. I know this is heresy, but I'm not 100% sure that we need the rangefinder portion on a digital body any longer. Why not just go to an EVF with great focus capabilities? Reduce the price ($2k or less would be ideal), give it a full frame sensor, and I'm in. I think that the mechanics of a rangefinder increase the price of the camera immensely. Drop those mechanics, and you could have a winner.

Obviously, Leica won't build a camera like this for the price I want, but some competitor might...
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I agree completely. Give me a top notch EVF on a rangefinder styled body that I can use stellar small, high quality type rangefinder lenses on, and I am there.
 
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