Leica LTM Identifying a camera...

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
it screams fake to me -- even if you get past the snakeskin and the brass finish, the Nazi eagle engraving on the top and the lens cap were not genuine details. The accessory shoe should have those two spring loaded clips as well, I believe. I'm certain others can point to subtleties in other details as well.

So, all in all a jazzed up FED, most likely. Have fun with it -- but maybe tape over the swastikas.
 
It is a Russian Fake. The serial numbers are completely off for anything from WW-II. The Sn is way past those used through 1948 or so. SN for WW-II cameras is under 400,000.
 
FAKE! It's an early ish Zorki 1. Lens looks like a FED but it shouldn't be coated, based on the aperture scale - that's probably a parts-special. Coated lenses were marked f/3.5-16 in "modern" steps, AFAIK. Uncoated lenses were f/3.5-18 in "old" steps. If it were a genuine Elmar, were they not uncoated too?
 
Interesting that the eBay auction states that it's Luftwaffe, but doesn't have the FL# on top. I'd want to double-check that one with Jim Lager.
 
colyn said:
It is a real Leica and not a Russian fake.
Click to expand...

Yes, of course it's a real Leica. The 'K' in the serial # I think has been added though. It's too large and the serial # itself is too low to be a K shutter camera. The 'K' on the curtain looks to have been added, not restored.
 
As well, I just checked Jim Lager's 'Luftwaffe Leica', and that serial number is not listed. IIIcK cameras were shipped to the Luftwaffe, but this does not seem to be among them. It appears (at least from what I can figure out) that the serial numbers go from 387101-387150 on Feb. 18 and 27, 1942 respectively, then they pick up again with 387401 on May 5, 1942. Closest delivery to the date the eBay seller states (as far as the body goes at least) is shipment 9113 on September 16, 1942, but those serial numbers are in the 388xxx range.

I'd definitely tread lightly with that camera if you were to bid!

As far as the serial numbers of K shutters, Jim mentions that the grey cameras are above 387500. No mention of the chrome versions.
 
Last edited:
1. A obvious Russian Fake.
2. Interesting. Certainly a Leica. As for K..? I was however told by a reliable source (Horst Haberstroh, a well known Leica collector from Vancouver, no longer alive) that quite a number of earlier Leicas were converted to K during the war when production could not meet the demand. Not sure about numbers, but likely whatever was in stock. He had in his collection a gray engraved W.H. with an earlier number.
 
Now here`s the REAL DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

$(KGrHqMOKn!E1S8gw,(VBNczgtPvl!~~_3.JPG


http://cgi.ebay.com/WW2-1944-GRAY-L...657867170?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item19c3b90da2

I have no connection to the seller btw......

This is a real W.H. German Army Leica -

The lens isn't the original issue
(it's a postwar coated 1946 US Army issue/#589xxx is Feb/Mar 46 - a few thousand lenses were left over from the 1941/2 production and they were issued out after the surrender,. but that`s another Leica story....all from my research)

........but all the other correct bells and whistles are there, rare Fiducial marks, very good condition "K" stamp etc. etc.

I don't collect the Military marked cameras, but I know them very very well and this is the nicest W.H. camera I have seen for quite a few years now, good condition and was saved from the cutters, they didn`t destroy the Fiducial marks which add lot's of extra value to this camera, I've seen this camera before, I have to look in my records to see what it sold for originally, but these are getting harder and harder to find, this one doesn't have the rare original W.H. issued lens and is a little bit overpriced in my personal opinion, but the "matching" numbers camera/lens combo sets are selling now at the major auctions in Europe for very good money :D

Finding a real IIIC K now is getting to be a real undertaking and you really have to know your stuff about them before buying, it's real easy to make mistakes and spend lots of money on junk nowadays if your not careful!

Tom
 
Last edited:
2. ....I was however told by a reliable source (Horst Haberstroh, a well known Leica collector from Vancouver, no longer alive) that quite a number of earlier Leicas were converted to K during the war when production could not meet the demand.[/quote]

Now that would be a neat trick, and probably possible in the factory by machining existing parts and adding a new drum assy, bearings, etc, but would it be likely? I know desperate measures are sometimes applied in extremis, but that's almost twice the work of building a new camera, isn't it?
 
john neal said:
2. ....I was however told by a reliable source (Horst Haberstroh, a well known Leica collector from Vancouver, no longer alive) that quite a number of earlier Leicas were converted to K during the war when production could not meet the demand.
Click to expand...


I would like to see delivery docket or factory billed paperwork to establish that rumour........I've never seen anything from the factory stating or showing any normal IIIC camera's being modified or upgraded to K shutters due to a lack of cameras from supply probems, if anything the factory made TOO MANY
and in 1945 there was a leftover unsold stock of IIIC K's from production with 500 to 650 lucky US Army Officer's and DOD employee's walking away with their newly purchased Leica IIIC K's in the mid summer of 1945.

Tom
 
Last edited:
LeicaTom said:
I would like to see delivery docket or factory billed paperwork to establish that rumour........I've never seen anything from the factory stating or showing any normal IIIC camera's being modified or upgraded to K shutters due to a lack of cameras from supply probems, if anything the factory made TOO MANY
and in 1945 there was a leftover unsold stock of IIIC K's from production with 500 to 650 lucky US Army Officer's and DOD employee's walking away with their newly purchased Leica IIIC K's in the mid summer of 1945.

Tom
Click to expand...


I am sorry to cause all this excitement. I did however see (in late 70s) in Horst's amazing collection a IIIC K WH with 37 something number. I have no way to verify his statement or the authenticity of his camera. Just passed this on for what it is worth.
 
Fake... Zorki 1 or II,
you can buy these "special edition" models in about 10 varieties, for $140.00 all day long.
Look at shape center window, look at the size round RF windows, look at the shape and size shutter release cover... all wrong for a Leica.
 
I can give the British version of this as many dealers were advertising for "Leicas, Contaxes and Super Ikontas, [especially] models 530/16 and 532/16 ... in order to complete important Government Contracts". That was in a 1941 camera magazine.

That suggests purchase of second-hand ones, refurbishment and, no doubt, grading and stamping by the Govt. dept that wanted them. I've examples of other optical instruments in my collection with Govt. grading stamps on them and expect it would be the same for cameras.

And in the May '41 edition of the magazine there's an article about a captured Leica (IIIc) with the red/black blind etc. I've just re-read it and there's no mention of the "K" or stampings.

But the article ended like this:-

"Captured German aircraft have revealed the fact that many pilots carry Leicas. The standard Luffwaffe model Leica is a IIIB, not the new model and is finished not in black but in Luftwaffe grey, with the name "Luftwaffe" prominently lettered in silver across the back."

Regards, David
 
The thing is definitely a Fed 1, a somewhat crude copy of the Leica ii, but you have to wonder how the original lettering was covered up.
 
Engravings weren't covered up, but the top chrome was ground off, after which the whole top plate was re-chromed and re-engraved. New chrome filled the original engravings and was tough enough to re-engrave with a different logo like the Leica logo.

I've owned a fake Shanghai RF in the past, it was a FED-1 that was completely remodeled as a rare Chinese RF, red engravings and all. But, no slow speed button on the front, like the original Shanghai's had.

At the moment I still own one original FED-S Komandirski. It was FED's flag ship in pre-war and early war years, until the Germans destroyed the factory at Kharkow. It has a 1/1000th top speed and a FED 50/2.0 which is a perfect Summar copy with a slightly different barrel length, non-standardized and made to match the camera body. When I found the camera and lens set, it had a ground-to-brass bottom plate (getting rid of Russian engravings) and a newly chromed top plate. At which time they probably discovered they were faking a FED-S that was worth enough already into a Leica fake, and called it a day.
As a result all top engravings are gone, but it is easy to see that the top was re-chromed, the chrome color is slightly off.


​
FED S with FED 100/6.3 and FED 50/2.0 lenses by buzzardkid, on Flickr

It is shown here with the 50/2.0 an uncoupled 100/6.3 and a Canon 135 finder, since I have yet to find the proper 100mm FED finder.

When the Wall fell some East-European 'buseinessmen' started faking old FED's and Zorki's into Leica's straight away, to sell them as 'valuable rare finds' in boot sales and flea markets. In the Netherlands there is a vending site that lists a new one nearly every week, lots of people can't distinguish fake from real...
 
David Hughes said:
Super Ikontas, [especially] models 530/16 and 532/16 ... in order to complete important Government Contracts".
Click to expand...

Both types were bought by the UK Government through Turkey early in the War. These went to equip the Army Film & Photo Units. AFPU were not issue 35mm cameras though. Because of lack of 35mm film stock and to prevent discrimination between units, according to J. Lewinsky.

And in the May '41 edition of the magazine there's an article about a captured Leica (IIIc) with the red/black blind etc. I've just re-read it and there's no mention of the "K" or stampings.
Click to expand...
Because the IIIcK was a later development. Not sure on the exact date, but late 1942 to 1943...Tom will know the specifics.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom