Leica LTM Identifying a camera...

Leica M39 screw mount bodies/lenses
aoresteen said:
So what is a fair price for a real grey K IIIc Leica?
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Well, here`s the last one SOLD on ebay........a 1945 US Army issue


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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=320664645651&si=22jHKa%252Bjq3FVMkKtHS%252FP4jH2xyk%253D&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

$1,900 for a camera that's filthy , rusted (sadly wet stored) and with 86% paint, dry shutter curtains etc. etc. etc.

Evilbay is the market signal for stuff like this it seems, people are getting desperate as these are getting harder and harder to find in good condition, they buy what they can find really......

Tony, your in Orlando? I'm in Winter Haven, are you seriously looking for a IIIC K camera, let me know I know where the best NON EVILBAY auction cameras are, write me off the board.... :)

Tom
 
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Mr_Flibble said:
Both types were bought by the UK Government through Turkey early in the War. These went to equip the Army Film & Photo Units. AFPU were not issue 35mm cameras though. Because of lack of 35mm film stock and to prevent discrimination between units, according to J. Lewinsky.

Because the IIIcK was a later development. Not sure on the exact date, but late 1942 to 1943...Tom will know the specifics.
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And in the May '41 edition of the magazine there's an article about a captured Leica (IIIc) with the red/black blind etc. I've just re-read it and there's no mention of the "K" or stampings.
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Yeh, that UK magazine was one of the first ever Western/Allied tests of the Leica IIIC, (the camera was a chrome 1941 issue with Red Shutter Curtain material)
the Birtish were the first to acquire them as some Luftwaffe aircrews had cameras aboard as their aircraft were shot down over England......

Also the infamous "Shetland Bus" brought copies of the IIIC and also Zeiss Sonnar LTM lenses to the UK from Norway, which in turn had received them in barter from netural Sweden.

On a whole, Leica IIIC K's didn`t start falling into Allied hands until after
D-Day 6th of June 1944 and even then they were very highly prized barter items, just like German Luger's or Schnellfuer Mauser's. ~
the first IIIC K's were made in late 1942.

Many WW2 vets I have interviewed about them, told me the word about the barter and Black Market system was
"always try to get a blue-grey Leica camera , one of them painted ones, they are the best"........

yeh, best for taking pictures and best for trading, anyone have 40 cartons of Chesterfield cigarettes I can borrow?????? :D

Tom
 
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Mr_Flibble said:
You bring the cigarettes, I'll bring the time machine ;)
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Yeh, I that case we need about 3 cases of American cigarettes a bunch of K rations, about 300 Hershey bars and a few boxes of Nylons (that's if the Leica owners are female)...............ohh and the Russian soldiers like American wrist watches and Jim Beam, so I better bring a few Hamilton's and a couple bottles of the hard stuff when we go and stop by and visit them at Jena :D
-
IF ONLY WE COULD!

Tom
 
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Looking at the May '41 article again and using the magnifying glass I'd guess the number of the IIIC reads like this "No 362674" but that French site says it doesn't exist. Trying 382674 we get 1941 and a IIIc.

In the may article they don't identify it but in December '41 or January '42 when the magazine published an index they identify it as a IIIc.

BTW, talking of barters; one of my nice Zorki 1's was traded from a USSR soldier on the Rhine to a Polish soldier and then came back to the UK, and then I got it with history etc.

Regards, David
 
David Hughes said:
Looking at the May '41 article again and using the magnifying glass I'd guess the number of the IIIC reads like this "No 362674" but that French site says it doesn't exist. Trying 382674 we get 1941 and a IIIc.

In the may article they don't identify it but in December '41 or January '42 when the magazine published an index they identify it as a IIIc.

BTW, talking of barters; one of my nice Zorki 1's was traded from a USSR soldier on the Rhine to a Polish soldier and then came back to the UK, and then I got it with history etc.

Regards, David
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362xxx - it would make it a July/August 1940 IIIC , made and issued right when England was in the "thick" of it during the Battle of Britain, it was a new camera that didn`t have a long service with the Luftwaffe, it spent the rest of it's life working in the WD for "King and the Crown!"
:)

Ohh David, what magazine is that???? I will have to find an issue or get that article professionaly copied, it is one of the very few pieces of printed matter made during WW2 in the English language having anything to do with the Leica IIIC..........

*Bravo on the Zorki I and it's original history, I never went after buying a WW2 Zorki or a Fed while I was stationed in Germany in the 1980's, I'd imagine that finding one with an original Russian WW2 history would be almost as impossible as it's getting the history on any WW2 Leica's ~
I will have the histories of my Leica's all printed out at my webiste soon, it's great to find a camera with a history no matter how big or small, just knowing what your camera did or where it was and have it documented is a real thing to cherish :D *

Tom
 
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Mr_Flibble said:
Isn't the Zorki I post-war? 1949 I think, after the FED camera's with the KMZ logo.

I'm sure I've read that article on the captured IIIC posted here at RFF or at Photo.net before.

Edit, it was posted in this topic:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85287

And the correct link to the blog:
http://photography-matters.blogspot.com/2010/01/leica-iiic-first-ever-review.html
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ooooo dog diggity, I do remember reading that article, see how kool they compared the IIIB to the IIIC nice!

Miniature Camera Magazine May, 1941 ~ so a #362xxx camera July/August 1940 would be just the right ticket, did about 8 months service for the Fatherland before being captured and tested..........then used in England.

oHH and about the Russian's I have to read up on the WW2 Russian cameras history, I do't know anything about WW2 Russian cameras, but to find one with a known WW2 combat history would be a great find! ~

Who is the WW2 era expert here on Russian LTM cameras at RFF?

Tom
 
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Can't comment on their knowledge of Russian camera history, but Wolves3012 and Brian Sweeney (and a few others over at the FSU section) know their way around the Russian bodies and lenses.

I'd say the FED-NKVD cameras are the war-time and pre-war to go for.

There is one photo in "Stalin's War: Soviet Uniforms & Militaria 1941-45 in colour photographs" by Laszlo Bekesi, of a couple of Soviet scouts with a 'Leica' camera and an enormous tele-lens.
I have an MP3 somewhere of the "Song of the Military Correspondents" from the Great Patriotic War, a line in there literally translates: "With Submachine Gun and Leica in hand" as I recall.
 
LeicaTom: That's the article and you can still find copies of the magazine. AbeBooks.co.uk is the best source ; I hope there's a local branch for you. You won't find it by a search on the magazine's title but a search on P W Harris should find it.

I got the entire volume for December '40 to November '41 recently because I wanted just the November '41 issue for an article about the FED's and spotted the "IIIc" in the index. I mentioned that article somewhere as it showed me the correct lens caps for the Leicas and FED's of that period.

Mr Flibble; I reckon my Zorki is late 1950 onwards but got different versions of its history from the family at different times. "Rhine", "Russian Soldier" and "Polish Soldier" are the only common threads in the pre-UK history. I expect I'll get it in the end. Given the age of anyone Polish, who got to England - meaning 1938 or '39 - I doubt if I'll get nearer the source.

He was serving in the Polish Third Corps if that means anything. I expect there's a Corps history somewhere and, of course, the Rhine could have been as in "Third Army on the Rhine" (British) and got altered over time or just half remembered.

Regards, David
 
David Hughes said:
Mr Flibble; I reckon my Zorki is late 1950 onwards but got different versions of its history from the family at different times. "Rhine", "Russian Soldier" and "Polish Soldier" are the only common threads in the pre-UK history. I expect I'll get it in the end. Given the age of anyone Polish, who got to England - meaning 1938 or '39 - I doubt if I'll get nearer the source.

He was serving in the Polish Third Corps if that means anything. I expect there's a Corps history somewhere and, of course, the Rhine could have been as in "Third Army on the Rhine" (British) and got altered over time or just half remembered.

Regards, David
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Just speculating here;
I don't think there was a Polish 3rd Corps during the War,

The Polish 2nd Corps fought in North Africa and Italy. They did not get near the Rhine I think. And 2nd Corps was disbanded in 1946 or 47.

The Polish 1st Corps fought its way from Normandy to Wilhelmshaven in Germany, where it remained on Occupation duty after the war. Did they became part of the BAOR? Likely he traded for the camera during that time.

Perhaps after demobilization your man settled in England as he could not return home to Poland. Many Poles settled in Wilhelmshaven and other cities like Breda where they felt they were welcome.
 
Mr_Flibble said:
Just speculating here;
I don't think there was a Polish 3rd Corps during the War,

The Polish 2nd Corps fought in North Africa and Italy. They did not get near the Rhine I think. And 2nd Corps was disbanded in 1946 or 47.

The Polish 1st Corps fought its way from Normandy to Wilhelmshaven in Germany, where it remained on Occupation duty after the war. Did they became part of the BAOR? Likely he traded for the camera during that time.

Perhaps after demobilization your man settled in England as he could not return home to Poland. Many Poles settled in Wilhelmshaven and other cities like Breda where they felt they were welcome.
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That's along the lines I was thinking only without the knowledge of the various Corps. Mainly because we have a large Polish community in the UK because they decided to stay here rather than return. I always think we treated them badly and gave too much away to Stalin...

Alas, most of my Polish friends have been here long enough to have forgotten how to speak Polish and get embarrassed in the Polish shops in town; so can't help with my research.

So I'll leave my one as ex-USSR, bartered and brought to England and then sold to me.

Regards, David

PS I've had a little movement on the 1930's film front. Try:-
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1569092#post1569092
 
If he did serve with 1st Corps, then he probably came close to my home town between December '44 and January '45. There were numerous Polish casualties during the Allied attacks on the Kapelse Veer Bridgehead (The German jump off point towards Antwerp had the Battle of the Bulge swung in their favor)
 
Having talked about things half remembered I looked up my notes. Seems the family lived in Poland near the border with Russia. I bought the camera from the daughter in law of one of the family but his brother did the swop. Then he got it, his son had it and the son's wife sold it to me. So a drawn out chain back to the beginning. Not much hope of 100% accuracy there.

Given the camera is probably 50's it would be the Army of Occupation and so 1st Corps... It's all good fun! And did I remember or forget to thank you for the info? Anyway, many thanks.

Regards, David
 
A camera with at least a partially known history is still very cool. I know very little about any of my cameras to be honest.
 
It gets worse, I've a FED 1 that belonged to a pro and was kept for a prop for years. Several have shown me soft port pictures (from that side of the Iron Curtain) with the model holding one. And I threw away the undeveloped film that was in it...

Regards, David
 
Well, didn't quite make $5k........

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item19c3b90da2&item=110657867170&nma=true&pt=Film_Cameras&rt=nc&si=22jHKa%252Bjq3FVMkKtHS%252FP4jH2xyk%253D

Still a little pricely I'd say in my opinion for a camera missing it's original Elmar f3.5/50 W.H. lens and sporting , (a postwar 1946 issue Summitar) and a normal Leica IIIF camera case, (I'd think that with the kind of money the seller was asking he could do better than that? ~ I guess not LOL!) ~
but, still it was a very nice clean original camera body, it sold for like $2k more than it sold for last year......over the evilbay.

A friend of mine bought this camera.............now here comes the search for an original W.H. lens, will be hard , but not impossible :D

Tom
 
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I had been watching that one too. The 'don't miss out' email showed it just over $3000 when I read it.. Must've been quite a bidding war.
 
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