buying a 120 rf in 2011?

[perudo]

hello,
I own a GA645 and I really like the result a lot.( actually more than when I shoot with my leica!)
The problem is, I don't like the autofocus and would prefer a more manual camera.
The format I am looking for is 6x 4.5, because I don't like the 6x7 ratio.

Therefore only 2 cameras come to my mind: rf 645 or mamiya 6 with 6x4.5 adapter.

The question I am really asking myself is whether or not it is a smart move to invest in such a camera?
Let me explain why:
I have a leica, and I know I will find people who will be able to repair it for a long time. Spare parts will still be available for some time and the camera is popular enough to have specialised people who know how to cla and repair it.
But what if I buy a rf645 or a mamiya 6?
Can people still repair it nowadays? Because of all the electronic inside, could it be prone to fail sooner than a fully mechanical camera? Will I be able to repair it , if it breaks in 2, 3 or maybe 5 years?
What do you think? Your feedback, thoughts and experience are welcome😉

 

[andredossantos]

How about going up to 6x9 🙂

 

[Texsport]

I have!

Texsport

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

hi,

i have a lovely bronica rf645, i like the fact that the electronic parts are the metering, and the shutter mechanism. The winding advance, loading and focusing are all manual. I agree with you that with an exotic RF 120, parts and cla are not exactly easiest to come by. But the quality of the images and the pleasure of using the camera is another level by itself.

See attached image, tmax 3200 at 800iso and developed in prescysol ef.

 

[t.s.k.]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Mamiya 6 "adapter" merely a 645 mask? The film advance gearing remains the same, hence you still get 12 frames per 120.

 

[Steve M.]

For all of the reasons your stated, I shoot old folders for medium format. They're very simple cameras that can be easily repaired, usually, and if you have one w/ a coupled rangefinder and double exposure prevention on the wind-on, they're pretty fast to shoot. For what it's worth, I always get more keepers when I use a scale focus camera than one one w/ a RF, so perhaps it's the slowing down that helps.

 

[KenR]

I had nothing but trouble from my RF645 prompting me to sell it and buy a Mamiya 6. This seems much better built - no trouble from it thus far. Just bought a Fuji GSW690 for even more film surface area- also tank like in build.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

KenR,

can you elaborate the issues you have encountered ? I am genuinely curious.eg. is it mechanical issues or electrical ?

thanks

 

[john_s]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Mamiya 6 "adapter" merely a 645 mask? The film advance gearing remains the same, hence you still get 12 frames per 120.

I just checked the manual of the Mamiya 6MF and that's right. It cuts off the top and bottom of the frame so there are still only 12 frames to a roll of 120.

I would rather use the full square frame and crop if necessary. It also obviates the need to turn the camera 90 degrees for a portrait oriented shot.

The existence of the 645 mask probably dates from the advertising department who wanted a "multi format" product. The 35mm adapter might be in the same category. These adapters do not appear in the earlier 6 manual (the one without the "MF" moniker).

 

[perudo]

I just checked the manual of the Mamiya 6MF and that's right. It cuts off the top and bottom of the frame so there are still only 12 frames to a roll of 120.

I would rather use the full square frame and crop if necessary. It also obviates the need to turn the camera 90 degrees for a portrait oriented shot.

The existence of the 645 mask probably dates from the advertising department who wanted a "multi format" product. The 35mm adapter might be in the same category. These adapters do not appear in the earlier 6 manual (the one without the "MF" moniker).

yes I am totally aware of that, .....but this thread isn't about which camera I should buy, but about reliability of those two camera. Are they still being supported, and will there be independant repairmen who will be able to cla and repair them for a long time after bronica/tamron and mamiya won't support them?

 

[rxmd]

I think Tamron said they'll service the Bronica RF series until 2012 or so, so this is rather soon.

From that point of view, the Mamiya, while being long discontinued as well, might be the marginally better option. However, if you're willing to use format masks in 6x6 cameras (to crop the square to a 6x4.5 negative) you have a whole lot of other options. You could use a Hasselblad and an A16 back, for example. Or any RF folder, from Iskras to Ikontas.

In general anxiety is the second worst counselor in camera buying (the worst is Internet-induced GAS). If you're going to fret about repair options all the time, you're not going to get anywhere. Take pictures today and don't waste time and energy anguishing about whether you're going to get it repaired in ten years.

 

[Gordon Moat]

Just for example a Nikon FE has not been sold for over two decades, and not officially supported by Nikon for well over a decade, yet it is possible to find repair people and parts. If there are camera repair places, then cameras can be repaired. The electronic shutter on a Bronica RF645 is a Seiko made shutter mechanism, and not beyond repair. Cost of repairs at some point in the future is a different story, but then that would apply to nearly any camera. Official factory repair is another matter, but there are plenty of competent repair places that are lower cost than factory, and just as good.

When Tamron retired the Bronica brand, the last of cameras sold new was the RF645. As part of that process in the United States, they were required to supply parts for seven years. That time period will run out soon, but so far parts has not been an issue. It is even possible to get Tamron service still on an RF645, and at a reasonable price.

The issues reported have been largely with the film winding mechanism on some cameras. I found that if I used Fuji spools for Fuji films, and Kodak spools for Kodak films, then I have not had any winding issues. I have both the 45mm and 65mm lenses. There have been several times that I have used this camera system for my professional projects, and it has traveled well on aircraft and always performed reliably.

 

[perudo]

Just for example a Nikon FE has not been sold for over two decades, and not officially supported by Nikon for well over a decade, yet it is possible to find repair people and parts. If there are camera repair places, then cameras can be repaired. The electronic shutter on a Bronica RF645 is a Seiko made shutter mechanism, and not beyond repair. Cost of repairs at some point in the future is a different story, but then that would apply to nearly any camera. Official factory repair is another matter, but there are plenty of competent repair places that are lower cost than factory, and just as good.

When Tamron retired the Bronica brand, the last of cameras sold new was the RF645. As part of that process in the United States, they were required to supply parts for seven years. That time period will run out soon, but so far parts has not been an issue. It is even possible to get Tamron service still on an RF645, and at a reasonable price.

The issues reported have been largely with the film winding mechanism on some cameras. I found that if I used Fuji spools for Fuji films, and Kodak spools for Kodak films, then I have not had any winding issues. I have both the 45mm and 65mm lenses. There have been several times that I have used this camera system for my professional projects, and it has traveled well on aircraft and always performed reliably.

I think you are right.... I have the opportunity to buy a rf645 and think I will do it. Hope the rangefinder is well aligned, because I wouldn't have to send it right after receiving it for a cla

 

[kuzano]

Precede the AF and stay with Fuji 645

Precede the AF and stay with Fuji 645

In terms of a Manual Focus, nicely metered, excellent rangefinder, I would encourage you to consider the Fuji GS645S. I am not talking about the early folder, which invariably need a new bellows.

The GS645S is a true rangefinder with a fixed 60mm lens, which is a bit wide angle for 645. It shoots 16 pics per roll, is very light, but is a metal frame clad in plastic. Has a "roll bar" for protection of the lens. There is also the GS645W which has a 45mm lens, but is Zone focus...not RF.

Service is still quite available. I've had about three of the GS645S. EXCELLENT Fuji glass, and all of mine have been reliable. Won't kill your wallet as much as the 645RF and I suspect the reliability is better since it's a much simpler camera in terms of mechanics. the over/under metering is on the money.

I do know that Frank Marshman, Camera Wiz still services them and can get parts from Fuji. He's good and very reasonable. Harrisburg VA.

 

[tomele]

I have just bought a Mamiya 6 (I love it). There are a still a couple of trusted independent workshops here that do service those, and one of them assured me there was no shortage of spare parts to expect in the near future.
Now regarding film photography in general, it would not be wise to plan any investement for the very long term anyway...

 

[shadowfox]

Now regarding film photography in general, it would not be wise to plan any investement for the very long term anyway...

Why not ?

 

[KenR]

Bronica issues

Bronica issues

My Bronica problems began on the first day that I used the camera - the battery compartment (held fast by two tiny pieces of plastic) opened up spontaneously, leaving me in the woods with no batteries and a dead camera. I then always kept it taped closed. Then exposure compensation wheel on the back doesn't have a strong detent to keep it in the neutral position, so I was forever over or underexposing things by 1 or 2 stops as it would move off neutral by rubbing against my body while walking along, until I taped it to the zero position. The vertical rangefinder would be off if you breathed on the camera (too bad I couldn't tape it in position). But the last straw for me was when the film would not advance - again a dead camera - this time in the middle of Rocky Mountain National Park. I sold it after that.

 

[Bob Michaels]

..................... As part of that process in the United States, they were required to supply parts for seven years. ......................................

It is an urban legend that a manufacturer legally must supply parts for any length of time in the US. I suspect that is the case in the EEU but I do not have the years of experience there to back up that statement as I do in the US.

Now most manufacturers do not want to tarnish their name and impact future business but that did not apply to Bronica. Fortunately there are parts left over as well as parts cameras.

 

[Bob Michaels]

................................... Because of all the electronic inside, could it be prone to fail sooner than a fully mechanical camera? Will I be able to repair it , if it breaks in 2, 3 or maybe 5 years?
What do you think? Your feedback, thoughts and experience are welcome😉

I strongly believe that, in spite of popular opinion here, that modern day electronics are much more reliable than old time mechanical assemblies. That is in cameras and just about everything else as well.

I have a friend who owns a pro camera repair shop. I sometimes hang around there. Michael says he sees almost no electronic failures at all.

When something mechanical in a camera breaks, you typically replace it. There is no home manufacturing of new gears or escapements. Just like electronics. The big difference is that the electronics seldom go bad and never wear out the way mechanical assemblies do.

I once resisted electronic fuel injection for my cars. I knew I could repair, rebuild, and tweak Holley 4 barrel carburetors. Now I have had cars with EFI for over 20 years and not the first problem yet. Cameras are the same.

 

[benlees]

Can't really go wrong with your GA. Maybe try a GS for the rangefinder experience. The 60mm lens is the kind of lens that makes your eyes bleed! And the Fujis are cheap! I had a Mamiya 7 for awhile but I preferred the negs from the Fuji. It all depends what you want.