Japan vs Tokyo 50mm Nikkor

[LeicaTom]

I have a LTM Nikkor SC in the #5005 series and it has a smoother looking bokeh than later post May 1950 LTM Nikkor SC lenses, I perfer the look of the #5005 SC Tokyo lens to the later Japan lenses.....

Tom

 

[ferider]

Per Rotoloni:

"... the very first series of the famous f1.4 have the prefix '5005' for May 1950, but are seen in two 'batches' that are a little confusing. The earliest seen and verified in both the literature and on bodies have been recorded from 50050101 to 50052116. This suggests approximately 2,000 made, with screw mounts intermixed. However, there is a small problem for another short series of '5005' lenses also exists, but these have only 7 digits, not 8. They have been seen between 5005268 and 5005953! The zero after '5005' is missing. .... If this is a true separate batch, then another 700 lenses must be added to give us a total of about 2,700 units, with screw mounts included.
Before the end of the Occupation, possibly as early as late 1951, the numbers were completely revised and a new series, starting at 316001, is seen. These newly numbered lenses are still marked 'Tokyo', since they are really the same lens ! Recorded examples in his batch run as high as 321862, ..."

I have 320491. Very happy with it.

Roland.

 

[CameraQuest]

Due to a bit of luck in searching the web I found that
Serial No. 50050137 was fitted to a Nikon I when it was illustrated in a Nikon catalogue.(see photo below)
This could mean that the first 200 of the 5005 series were lenses for the Nikon rangefinder and I know that some LTM lenses are in the 500502xx series, so the first LTM lens could be 50050201.

that 5005 lens is not pictured on a Nikon 1.

the 5005 series 50/1.4 arrived several years later, first showing up on M's from about the M6092000 range.

Stephen

 

[CameraQuest]

the really interesting thing about this thread is whether or not the 5005 lenses really do have an optical formula different from the later lenses.

I've asked Bob Rotoloni to have a look at this thread.

Stephen

 

[ferider]

I'm convinced a switch of optical formula happened, early after the introduction of NKJ on the beauty ring (serial numbers of NKT and NKJ lenses overlap: the latest recorded NKT is 321862, the earliest NKJ 321504). If I remember right, Brian's front element measurements confirmed this.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

My 5005 series lens was on a Nikon M with Sync, MIOJ in the body leather.

The diameter of the optics is definitely smaller, and the diameters of the optical fixtures are smaller than the later lenses. I tried to use parts of a 33x lens to repair the damaged filter ring of the 5005 lens. First hint- the front element of the 5005 lens went through the fixture for the later lens. It was ~1mm less in diameter.

 

[LeicaTom]

Yeah, super hard to find the NKT #5005 LTM version this nice, great shooting lens on film (black and white) and also using Leica digital.

The metal cap is post 1950 though, I'm pretty sure most of if not all of the #5005 LTM's had black bakelite plastic caps, which mostly didn't survive since May 1950.

Great lens, I know you will enjoy it, the click stops blew me away too.....on such an early lens!

Mine has near perfect optics, but looks like it was in the Korean War, two massive dents on the filter ring, I have to duct tape a UV filter to the lens to use a IR/CUT and hood when shooting on the M8, despite it's looks I've decided not to part with it, while I enjoy the results it gives.

Happy Shooting!

Tom

 

[ferider]

Nice lens, PAN F ! Enjoy on film

The metal cap is post 1950 though, I'm pretty sure most of if not all of the #5005 LTM's had black bakelite plastic caps, which mostly didn't survive since May 1950.

I think that's incorrect, Tom. Pan's cap says 'Tokyo' on it, and so does the chrome one I have at home (a bit banged up, lined with paper).

Cheers,

Roland.

 

[LeicaTom]

Nice lens, PAN F ! Enjoy on film



I think that's incorrect, Tom. Pan's cap says 'Tokyo' on it, and so does the chrome one I have at home (a bit banged up, lined with paper).

Cheers,

Roland.

Yeah, ALL metal caps from 1951 to 1953 have "Tokyo" on them and so do the plastic bakelite one's, mine is a #5005 and the cap was on since new.

I have only seen those bakelite caps on the early #5005 SC's and also on some f1.5/50 NKT LTM's as well, pretty sure the black plastic cap wasn't issued after 1951.

And with a lens that early #21 I'm sure it originally came with a plastic cap, like I said, 98% of them are lost - a very rare early cap it is.........maybe they had (3) differnet caps during the 1950/53 sales era, mine came from a US Air Force Officer who bought the lens new in the Tokyo PX in Sept. 1950.

But anyway, I was just mentioning the caps and the historical placement that I've formally have seen them in etc. the metal NKT cap is btw also collectable/uncommon and often not sold together on a lens

Tom

 

[uhoh7]

my japan 366xxxx

pull back a bit and things calm:

mine is not great at infinity--any aperture, but quite nice closer in.

 

[tjh]

Mine is a Japan version with a 327*** serial, so I guess it's the earlier formula. I've never had any issue with the bokeh, it's always looked smooth and interesting to my eye. Sharpness has never been that wonderful wide open and that glow never looks too pleasing with colour film.

Just for input while reading this interesting thread - I also have a Japan version (LTM Nikkor-SC) with a 327*** serial number.

 

[LeicaTom]

Just as a matter of interest,I read somewhere that David Douglas Duncan used the 5cm f1.5 Nikkor (Tokyo) on his Leica during the Korean War and illustrated the first two chapters of his book "This is War" with photo's taken using the 5cm f1.5 lens.
However for another two chapters in the same book he used photo's taken with the 5cm f1.4 Nikkor (Tokyo) presumably a #5005 series lens.Can anybody confirm this and supply any references or links to this information.
Many Thanks,

I read that somewhere too.........I think DDD used the LTM's in the first few Korean assignments for LIFE and then due to his contribution of getting the "Nikkor/Nikon" name around the world in pictures the factory supposedly gave him new Nikon camera equipment (bodies and lenses) after the 1951 era and his marriage with Nikon had begun.

Before that he was using a Leica IIIa and a WW2 era IIIC with the NKT LTM lenses on them and I have seen photos of him using both types of cameras......

Leica also made him the imfamous M3D ...........(an early Leica MP BP with chrome furniture and a Magmum winder)

Ohh and what I didn't know before was that DDD was a avid Mercedes Benz 300SL fan, he owned a Black 300SL "Gullwing" in 1956 and drove it all over Europe, I read it's the highest mileage MB 300SL GW ever! ~ It's now owned by Claude Picasso, Pablo Picasso's son

I have always loved the Roadster version of the classic 300SL, I photographed a Linden Green 1959 300SL Roadster a few years ago with a fashion model in St. Petersburg, they are beautiful cars!

I know I'mm getting off subject here..........so sorry, but I think all rare sportscar nutz will get a charge of of the photos in this article

http://www.scottgrundfor.com/resources/gallery/davidduncan/

*Go see the shot with the German Shepherd Dog and the Roadster like "up in your face/barking and slobbering" that dog was guarding that MB for sure!* too funny!

And the Motor Trend story here (scroll down) to David Douglas Duncan A storied history of the man and his Gullwing

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/classic/112_0411_gullwing/viewall.html

Enjoy!

Tom

PS: I think vintage sportscars and traveling and Leica and Nikkor and Canon lenses all go together somehow...........it must have been a thrill to have been a professional Photographer in the 1950's ~ was born 30 years too late! *SIGH*

 

[ampguy]

reference?

reference?

Jon, do you have a reference for this prohibition? Was it just camera stuff?

...During the occupation, Japanese manufacturers were prohibited from marking an item as being made in "Japan", so "Tokyo" was used instead.
...

 

[LeicaTom]

There's my #5005 on one of my two "user" 1945 chrome Leica IIIC K's, complete with electrical taped Walz UV filter and Walz Nikkor f1.4 hood (remember it has a really messed up/bashed in filter ring) - my lens is like serial number #500512xx something like the end of the line for the 1950 Nikkor SC LTM's .......sorry I forgot to photograph the plastic cap, I'll get a shot of it lateron

There's a shot of the damage...........I asked Essex camera if they could fix it they said yes, but I am worried that the rim/ring will crack apart/split if they try? - The front ring BTW is like a touch smaller than the later "Japan" lenses and cannot be swapped out, I guess when I think about it, it's not worth the risk of busting the ring up in repairs, I might be smarter if I just leave well enough alone?

I have the inner part of the dent painted flat black now (to avoid any cross/bounce glare from the damaged part) and the tape works fine and a IR/CUT filter screws right in too, so I use the lens in both real film and Leica digital on the M8.

Youxin just sold one of these on evilbay last week for $455 (a very good price) it had slight filter rim damage (that was nicely repaired) *see below*

They are quite hard lenses to find in clean/minty condition, but even mine as beat up as it looks, shoots great, I really like the look of the signature/bokeh of the early Nikkor NKT lenses.

Tom

PS: I hope that someday I will find a a "user" example of a Nikkor f1.5/50, though they are very uncommon and rarely turn up for sale online.....I have to get lucky at a garage sale

 

[LeicaTom]

Nice lens, PAN F ! Enjoy on film



I think that's incorrect, Tom. Pan's cap says 'Tokyo' on it, and so does the chrome one I have at home (a bit banged up, lined with paper).

Cheers,

Roland.

Ohh Roland, in the past few days, I'm been beating around the bush finding more about the whole caps thing and it seems that in 1950 they had like ALL (3) of them going on......and ALL NKT engraving.

What I've seen so far is like May 1950 lenses with the Black Painted Metal ones and also the Black Bakelite Plastic one and some later August 1950 lenses having the Silver (are they painted, or chromed?) metal caps, so all three were seen in 1950 being sold on Nikon Mount and LTM mounted lenses

Tom

 

[Sonnar Brian]

My Simlar 5cm F1.5 is also marked "Tokyo" rather than MIOJ. It came with a 4-Digit SN Leotax D-IV that is engraved "Made in Occupied Japan". The lens is the 74th made, and probably the 10th that stopped down to F16 rather than F12.5 (speculation based on internal engaved number "10"). The Simlar is interesting as it is a 1-3-2-1 (7elements in 4 groups) Planar formula lens rather than a Sonnar formula that Nikon and Canon used.

 

[ampguy]

Thanks Jon

Thanks Jon

The key words in the SCAPIN for MIOJ are "prepared for export" and "label" meaning that a product not initially prepared for export but exported by the customer or shipped used would not need an engraving or label, and 2nd, it didn't necessarily require stamping or engraving, an external label could be applied.

The above is consistent with dishes and cups, in that some were never stamped (prepared for export by someone other than the manufacturer? or never meant to be exported?), some were labeled in the US by importers in the US, and the MIOJ went well beyond the 1949 requirement, sometimes to 1955 (1951 or 1952 for Nikon?) for reasons that the stamping lettering machines were not changed until then, and that also, some importers liked MIOJ, as opposed to just MIJ or Japan, to indicate to customers that possible profits from those items were to go for reparations.

Interesting info. on bino. optics here: http://www.europa.com/~telscope/japanbin.txt

Here

The story goes that "Occupied Japan" was ok but "Japan" on its own was not. Easier just to engrave "Tokyo".

 

[Brian Legge]

Well, I have a 500512** on the way. Evidently it has the bakelite cap and comes in a metal Nikkor case.

I'm looking forward to given the lens a shot after all of the talk about it here. I'd really hoping I like it as I'd prefer a smaller lens than the Canon 50mm 1.4. That said, I have a hard time using lenses without click stops as I often adjust the lens while shooting.

The price was good though so I thought I'd give it a shot.

 

[kermaier]

My Nikkor-S.C 5005xxxx LTM lens has aperture click stops; I think it was only the early Nikkor-HC f/2 lenses that did not.
::Ari

 

[Brian Legge]

My copy of the lens does indeed have click stops! I was hoping it would after seeing you post - its hard to follow some of the discussions about this lens - but was nervous about getting my hopes up.

I shot my first roll with it this weekend and will hopefully have time to develop it tomorrow night. I'm excited as the lens looks to be in fabulous condition - particularly for the $300 it cost.