Leica M11 Information

[ranger9]

Seriously, the M11 looks terrific. If someone gave me one, along with a couple of Leica lenses, I would happily use it.

Leica Schmeika. I'd love to see what this thing can do with an APO Lanthar in front of it. Maybe Matt Osborn will give it a go.

Fun with arithmetic, 60-megapixel edition:

Sony A7R Mk IV with Sony's best 35mm, 50mm, and 85mm lenses: $8,716.

Leica M11 with Cosina Voigtlander's best 35mm, 50mm, and 90mm lenses from the Head Bartender's store: $11,942.​

Yeah, the Leica package is 37% more money. But that's merely expensive, not crazy expensive.

 

[Calzone]

And how will Leica enthusiasts respond to an additional menu selection? It is a slippery slope.

PTP,

The new Maestro Processors allow vast customization. On my SL2 I simplified and dumbed down the camera to streamline the camera into what I wanted. I got rid of features I don't need or don't use. The difference between the SL that I still own and use and the SL2 is a big jump in making the camera more intuitive and easier to use. I would expect that the M11 is even more intuitive and easier to use.

The user interface is counterintuitive in that it makes the camera easier to use and custom tailor. Realize that the user interface trickled down from the "S" to the SL to the SL2 to the "Q" and the M10.

Know that I'm an old-school guy, and use to be a film only die-hard, but Leica's user interface is a wonderful thing. I don't think it is a problem: its an asset.

Actually, I'm surprised that the M11 came out. After the M10, I was waiting or I'm still waiting for a SL2 Monochrom, or a SL3 with a higher resolution sensor.

So my response to the M11: I'm shocked.

Cal

 

[Beemermark]

I must be an idiot to skip the technical talk...but I had to just shake my head when I saw that the USB-C connector--the one that will communicate with a computer when you don't use a USB card and also charge the camera itself--on the bottom of the camera. So...I shoot all day with this $9k beauty, plug it into my computer...and lay it on it's rear screen while I'm working.

Two steps forward, one step back.

I'm with you on this. My beef with the bottom plate is I have to remove my case to access the SD card. So when they did away with the bottom plate at first I thought Great. Then I saw the connector is still on the bottom. At least on the M9 the USB connector is on the side. While it looks like a great camera I think I'll buy something a little more useful for $9K.

 

[ranger9]

And M11 owners knowing that "this downsampling feature" is available will cause exactly what improvement in their performance?

It will improve their money-spending performance at the Leica Store because they'll be happy they have other resolution options, even though they'll use the max resolution 90% of the time. Just like the experiment subjects, they'll feel “I like knowing I can turn it down if I have to, even if I don't do it.”

 

[ptpdprinter]

I have not been following this discussion about someone's belief in the afterlife. There are so many faiths which aver connections with the departed and messages and directions from them that to condemn one means you are close to condemning them all. The Bill of Rights covers this and while some might not agree with it the BoR is the law of the land. Further, I really do not give a fig about any beliefs someone has if they can speak knowledgeably on the subject they consider themselves experts on. No, this does not mean I endorse tyrants, monsters, lunatic cult leaders or so on. I just support any and all to believe whatever they wish so long as they harm no one so doing. As usual, YMMV. But wait, isn't this about the M11? Let's get on with that and start another thread for metaphysics, philosophy, religion and associated ideas. Sounds like a plan to me.

I view Steve Huff and his side business in devices that communicate with the dead like I view Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos on a vastly smaller scale. In both cases, no matter how many times you click your heels together, it ain't happening, and Steve and Elizabeth know it.

Going back to the topic at hand, since I bailed on Steve's video 45 seconds in, I still don't know why Leica, as he put it, sucks. I certainly don't think Leica sucks. Their cameras and lenses just cost an order of magnitude more than I am willing to spend. Which is not to say that an M11 and a couple of Leica lenses are not at the top of the list when my check from The Millionaire finally arrives in the mailbox.

As an aside, if you'll remember correctly, in the TV show, the million dollars you received was expressly stipulated to be tax-free. That is because the top tax rate at the time was such that if you had to pay tax on the million dollars, you wouldn't have had enough left over to buy a camera strap.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Let's stay on topic: eleven. Thanks, OtL

 

[ptpdprinter]

Let's stay on topic: eleven. Thanks, OtL

The M11 looks like a great camera. Anyone got theirs yet?

 

[willie_901]

... I am not sure how offering "three lossless DNG file options maximizes the utility of a high resolution sensor"?

Well, one can decide how to take advantage of high pixel density. The choices are:

• maximize image resolution
• maximize SNR/DR
• a compromise between the first two

[/QUOTE]

Does three choices really "maximize" utility?

How could it not? A thoughtful photographer would use the sensor pixel density in three different ways to maximize results for different scenarios. The same goes for lenses. Why use maximum resolution for a lens with less resolving power than the sensor? Isn't utility greater with M- or S-DNG modes which use the pixels to increaser SNR and DR? Then there's camera shake. In very low light using long shutter time its an advantage. But as pixel density increases camera shake becomes more problematic. (link see fig 5.) Using L-DNG requires longer shutter times to take full advantage of the resolution. Using S-DNG reduces the effective pixel density and increases SNR. How does the not provide more utility? Compared to any other still camera with 60 MP or greater resolution, the M11 offers maximum utility.

Wouldn't four or five options be better? ...

Really?

For L-DNG, M-DNG and S-DNG modes the change in resolution is linear. The 36 and 18 MP binned resolution is defined by the binning ratios (geometry. So more choices are not worth the effort to enginner.

The signal level increase is proportional to the square root of the binning ratio. So, 4X pixel binning doubles the maximum possible signal level. Leica states the maximum dynamic range with S_DNG 15 EV while L-DNF it is 14 EV. That is a one stop difference. M-DNG would be in the middle. Less than half stop increments offer no significant advantage.

And can the photographer really "chose the optimum resolution, SNR/DR and file size for the task at hand"? Is the optimum resolution, etc. for the task at hand always one of the three options offered by Leica.

You are correct. The possible binning strategies for optimum resolution and, or increase in signal level are extremely large. I was discussing the versatility of the M11. In fact, except for smart phones, the M11 offers the highest number of resolution vs SNR options for a still camera. But I should have used the phrase "compared to all other still cameras that are notr smart phones" every time I used the word optimum.

I know you are excited, but doesn't this kind of hyperbole really belong only in Leica marketing materials?

You know nothing about my personal opinion of the M11 or Leica. That also goes for what does or doesn't excite me about still-camera features.

In fact, I will never, ever own a Leica camera or lens. After the M8 IR contamination and M9 sensor corrosion debacles, I lost trust in Leica. I also lost all respect for most of Leica's photographer media reviewers and influencers.

Also, I have no interest in using a 60 MP sensor. So my excitement is non-existent.

I take offense at your use of the word hyperbole.

Everything I wrote were just facts about a well-established technology that happens to be new concept for consumer level (pros are consumers too) still-cameras. It was clear from some of the earlier comments in this thread (and some comments in response to on-line reviews published elsewhere) people are not familiar with the advantages of acquisition-level pixel binning.

 

[willie_901]

Metering is via the Sensor only and a Sandwiched cover glass is used.

...we'll know in a few years if the bottom layer starts corroding like on the M9.

If I were interested in the M11(I'm not), this would be the least of my worries.

The root cause of M9 sensor assembly corrosion was someone chose an IR-filter film material that reacts with water - in this case atmospheric water. At the time,IR filter-film materials with similar thicknesses and optical properties were available. Of course reactivity increases with temperature. Because M9s were used and stored in different environments and operated at different temperatures, for a time a clear pattern for the failures was not obvious. Eventually people realized there was no pattern. Then someone on another forum discovered there were two types of thin, IR filter layer materials. Sooner or later all M9s would corrode because atmospheric water is ubiquitous.

The problem was solved by switching to an optically appropriate IR-filter film designed to resist chemical reactions with water.

Using a sensor-assembly cover glass with a thin IR filter layer has advantages besides minimizing body depth while accommodating the physical requirements associated with the M-Mount. Some of the other manufacturers used thin IR filter-films as well. There's a reason why these cameras did suffer from IR filter layer corrosion - those manufacturers used IR-filter films that did not react with water.

 

[Emile de Leon]

Going back to the topic at hand, since I bailed on Steve's video 45 seconds in, I still don't know why Leica, as he put it, sucks.

It was a joke..
If you had hung in there for a bit you would have seen that..
The joke was..
Leica sucks... $$$..out of your wallet..lol..

 

[ptpdprinter]

It was a joke..
If you had hung in there for a bit you would have seen that..
The joke was..
Leica sucks... $$$..out of your wallet..lol..

Oh. Now I am really glad I bailed. I hope no one bought one using the link he provided. It just encourages him.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

If I were interested in the M11(I'm not), this would be the least of my worries.

The root cause of M9 sensor assembly corrosion was someone chose an IR-filter film material that reacts with water - in this case atmospheric water. At the time,IR filter-film materials with similar thicknesses and optical properties were available. Of course reactivity increases with temperature. Because M9s were used and stored in different environments and operated at different temperatures, for a time a clear pattern for the failures was not obvious. Eventually people realized there was no pattern. Then someone on another forum discovered there were two types of thin, IR filter layer materials. Sooner or later all M9s would corrode because atmospheric water is ubiquitous.

The problem was solved by switching to an optically appropriate IR-filter film designed to resist chemical reactions with water.

Using a sensor-assembly cover glass with a thin IR filter layer has advantages besides minimizing body depth while accommodating the physical requirements associated with the M-Mount. Some of the other manufacturers used thin IR filter-films as well. There's a reason why these cameras did suffer from IR filter layer corrosion - those manufacturers used IR-filter films that did not react with water.

From the announcement, " features a special IR+UV cut filter comprised of two extremely thin, cemented layers of glass and a new colour filter array for more natural colour reproduction."

It sounds like IR absorbing glass is being used. Thickness is not given. Of course a big problem to keep an eye on would be the sensor cracking. BSI sensors are back-thinned, and the cover glass is thin.

The most effective IR absorbing glass corrodes when exposed to moisture, not just S8612. Schott recommends making a sandwich with a category 1 glass, such as that used on the M8. Until Leica publishes more details about the glass cover, concern is not out of place. Schott (edit - used to) rates glass in 3 categories for stability. The BG-55 used for the revised KAF-18500 is a category 2, that used for the M8 was category 1. S8612 and others are category 3, degradation will occur in months with out proper protection against humidity.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Schott changed the categories for filter glass reacting to environment.


From "Optical Filter Glass 2020"

"Group “resistant glasses” No substantial surface change occurs in the filter glass types. A change in the surface is only possible under extreme conditions such as 85°C and 85% relative humidity for hundreds of hours. Group “robust glasses” Symbol: Glass types marked with a closed umbrella withstand warm humidity testing at 60°C and 90% relative humidity for more than 48 hours. Group “sensitive glasses” Symbol: Glass types marked with an opened umbrella should be used and stored in a moderate climate or in closed work and store rooms (constant temperature below 35°C, relative humidity less than 60%). A desiccant is to be used when wetness is a possibility. For use and storage in open air and tropical climates, it is advisable to apply protective coatings which SCHOTT can provide upon request. Group “delicate glasses” Symbol: For optical filter glass types marked with two opened umbrellas, changes in the glass surface are possible after several months of normal storage. These glasses are to be handled with care: Any contact with water or warm humidity should be avoided. A desiccant is to be used for long-term storage of unprotected glass. For this reason, protective coatings are recommended which SCHOTT can provide upon request."

S8612 is still the most efficient filter in terms of passing visible and absorbing IR listed in the 2020 catalog.

 

[raid]

Is there a reason to worry about the M11 having a sensor that may get cracked with use or is the M11 without such cracking?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

No one will know until the camera is in widespread use if there are hidden manufacturing or design problems. Sensor cracking occurred with the M9 early on. The M240 had a problem with strap lugs breaking.

 

[boojum]

No one will know until the camera is in widespread use if there are hidden manufacturing or design problems. Sensor cracking occurred with the M9 early on. The M240 had a problem with strap lugs breaking.

What's the fix for the bad M240 strap lugs? Just drag it to a good repair shop?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

What's the fix for the bad M240 strap lugs? Just drag it to a good repair shop?

This problem was in the first batch that was sold. Leica replaced the lugs for free.
With the M8, the IR problem was "somehow only noticed" after the camera was in the hands of people that bought them. Leica, and early reviewers, had to have noticed an issue.
The M11 may not have issues, may only need firmware fixes, etc.
Given the history of Leica with poor choices in cover glass, ie the M8 and M9, I would like to see more details on this new approach. The M10 did not have complaints. The M240- others have stated that it has more IR leakage than their M9.

 

[Calzone]

This problem was in the first batch that was sold. Leica replaced the lugs for free.
With the M8, the IR problem was "somehow only noticed" after the camera was in the hands of people that bought them. Leica, and early reviewers, had to have noticed an issue.
The M11 may not have issues, may only need firmware fixes, etc.
Given the history of Leica with poor choices in cover glass, ie the M8 and M9, I would like to see more details on this new approach. The M10 did not have complaints. The M240- others have stated that it has more IR leakage than their M9.

Brian,

I found that Heliopan filters marked "Digital" have additional UV and IR filters incorporated. I discovered this on my MM, and using a Heliopan "Digital" filter really improved the S/N ratio, eliminated or minimized clipping, and made cleaner files. This was verified at PhotoPlusExpo when I directly asked a Heliopan rep.

Don't tell anyone my secrete. LOL.

Seems that stripping out nonvisual info strips out signal that I would call noise because it is unwanted. It seems at least in the M9 the IR filter still lets some IR through and then there is the UV on the other end of the spectrum.

I wonder if a Heliopan Digital would have the same dramatic effect on an M10 or an M11?

Also know that the Heliopan works on my SL and SL2.

BTW clean files make better prints.

Cal

 

[raid]

Can you post a link for one of your Heliopan Digital filters, Cal? Thanks.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Is this thing comes with USB-C port exposed and no cover plug?