Owners: M10R vs M11 - Pros and Cons

[CameraQuest]

The M11 is a very different camera than the more traditionally designed M10R.

The M11 different design approach may be bothersome to some while others love the changes.

Putting cost aside, what are the owner's take on the two cameras?

Is the M11 worth the change, or is it a bridge going in the wrong direction ?

Was the M11 the better choice for you? Why ?

 

[Godfrey]

I've not even seen an M11 in person yet...

I have been over the Moon about the M10 Monochrom, to the point where I wanted essentially the same thing in a color camera. I chose to not consider the M11 and find a good used M10-R body instead because the batteries, charger, Visoflex, half case, and everything else I use with the M10 Monochrom is completely interchangeable with the M10-R. I don't need the M11's additional pixel resolution and features, and buying a second-hand M10-R body and having double use out of my accessories kit saved me a good bit of money.

Beyond that, perhaps one day I'll handle an M11 and see what I've been missing. LOL! 😉

G

 

[Bill Blackwell]

I'll stay away from any 40+ megapixel camera where IBIS is absent.

I see no way of fully benefitting from the extra resolution without it.

 

[LCT]

The M11 is my first modern M camera. Can be used in both RF and LV modes without significant drawbacks. It lacks IBIS though, which drives me to use 1/(2f)s shutter speeds to avoid camera shake at 60mp. One of its major pros is its BSI sensor preventing red edges and other color shift issues with WA lenses like Heliar 15/4.5 v2, Super-Angulon 21/3.4, or Biogon 21/4.5.

 

[Godfrey]

I'll stay away from any 40+ megapixel camera where IBIS is absent.

I see no way of fully benefitting from the extra resolution without it.

There's this funny device called a "tripod" ... 😉

G

 

[Bill Blackwell]

There's this funny device called a "tripod" ... 😉

OTOH I could opt for a 100 megapixel Fujifilm GFX medium format - with IBIS - AND A LENS for less money than either M body in question and still not need a tripod. Or, yea, I could lug around a tripod to get the full benefit of 40 (or 60) megapixels. The only option without IBIS is to keep your shutter speed at or above 500 (250 is pushing it) and use high ISO to compensate. No thank you.

 

[Godfrey]

Hmm. I don't seem to have any trouble holding my 50 Mpixel Hasselblad 907x or 40 Mpixel Leica M10-M still enough to get critically sharp prints, even at exposure times down into the 1/30 to 1/60 sec range*. If you cannot achieve that, then I understand your sentiments, but I suspect this is an issue that varies individual by individual.

*On inspection, I have several photos posted that were made at 1/15, 1/20, 1/25, and 1/30 second with the M10-M, and 1/30 to 1/50 second with the 907x. They're quite sharp, even at 100% on screen. I certainly wouldn't not buy a 40 or 60 Mpixel camera for reason of lack of IBIS, although image stabilization is a nice plus when needed. Image stabilization is particularly useful when working with a medium long focal length hand-held in marginal light, from my experience with it.

Oh yeah: I carry a tripod regularly, My field tripod is light and sturdy, and enables photographs that I could not otherwise achieve. I don't find it much of a burden.

G

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Hmm. I don't seem to have any trouble holding my 50 Mpixel Hasselblad 907x or 40 Mpixel Leica M10-M still enough to get critically sharp prints, even at exposure times down into the 1/30 to 1/60 sec range*. If you cannot achieve that, then I understand your sentiments, but I suspect this is an issue that varies individual by individual.

*On inspection, I have several photos posted that were made at 1/15, 1/20, 1/25, and 1/30 second with the M10-M, and 1/30 to 1/50 second with the 907x. They're quite sharp, even at 100% on screen. I certainly wouldn't not buy a 40 or 60 Mpixel camera for reason of lack of IBIS, although image stabilization is a nice plus when needed. Image stabilization is particularly useful when working with a medium long focal length hand-held in marginal light, from my experience with it.

Oh yeah: I carry a tripod regularly, My field tripod is light and sturdy, and enables photographs that I could not otherwise achieve. I don't find it much of a burden.

We're getting off-topic here and I certainly didn't intend to get into a debate. But if you're using a tripod, of course you can get these results. Regardless, I will yield to your experience and grant that using wider lenses will make the issue less critical. I do own a good tripod, but don't like lugging it around - so I rarely use it.

 

[Godfrey]

We're getting off-topic here and I certainly didn't intend to get into a debate. But if you're using a tripod, of course you can get these results. Regardless, I will yield to your experience and grant that using wider lenses will make the issue less critical. I do own a good tripod, but don't like lugging it around - so I rarely use it.

Just wanted to be sure it was clear that the photos I was referring to were made hand-held, NOT with the tripod. I can easily tell photos I make using the tripod: even at 1/1000 of a second, there is less camera motion blur in them than the best of exposures with any of my cameras, including the ones with image stabilization.

And yes, this has become a digression. 🙂

G

"My sharpest lens is a sturdy tripod."

 

[Ronald M]

IBIS is kind of a fraud. It works against me at high speeds and I do not know when to turn it on for low.
A grip for the M10R has become my friend

 

[Brick33308]

I briefly owned a GFX50, often had hand held images lacking perfect critical sharpness.

In February when I finally decided to jump into using a Leica rangefinder, money was no object, and I could have bought a M10R or M11. Ultimately I chose the M10 with its forgiving 24mp sensor, and am happy with the choice.

 

[35photo]

I have no issues handholding my GFX 50R @ 1/125 always get nice sharp images. I've gotten sharp images 1/30 as well but I keep it at 1/125 works great for me... If I need more exposure I turn up the ISO and open the lens up as needed.

 

[brusby]

IBIS is kind of a fraud. It works against me at high speeds and I do not know when to turn it on for low.
A grip for the M10R has become my friend

Yep, I feel defrauded out of so many of my blurry slow-shutter-speed pics. 😎

 

[Bill Blackwell]

Well, I guess I must admit to biting the bullet. I bought an M11-P last March and I'm enjoying it very much. The IBIS issue is dealt with by using higher default shutter speeds and compensating with ISO. I very quickly got used to the shutter sound (closing, opening, closing, and opening again). And the higher resolution over the M10 is almost staggering. The M11 battery is far superior to that of the M10.

I like it much better than expected. After a few months of M11-P ownership I can't think of a single advantage there might be to the M10-R.

 

[35photo]

Well, I guess I must admit to biting the bullet. I bought an M11-P last March and I'm enjoying it very much. The IBIS issue is dealt with by using higher default shutter speeds and compensating with ISO. I very quickly gut used to the shutter sound (closing, opening, closing, and opening again). And the higher resolution over the M10 is almost staggering. The M11 battery is far superior to that of the M10.

I like it much better than expected. After a few months of M11-P ownership I can't think of a single advantage there might be to the M10-R. View attachment 4839815

Nice rig! Glad you are enjoying it! I knew the whole IBIS thing was a bit overblown.... and you figured out the easy workaround🙂

 

[Godfrey]

Well, I guess I must admit to biting the bullet. I bought an M11-P last March and I'm enjoying it very much. The IBIS issue is dealt with by using higher default shutter speeds and compensating with ISO. I very quickly got used to the shutter sound (closing, opening, closing, and opening again). And the higher resolution over the M10 is almost staggering. The M11 battery is far superior to that of the M10.

I like it much better than expected. After a few months of M11-P ownership I can't think of a single advantage there might be to the M10-R. View attachment 4839815

The major advantage to me is simply that I already own the M10-R and wouldn't have to cough up the excess to pay for the M11-P. 🙂

G

 

[Freakscene]

M11:
Pro
Better battery life
Better metering\highlight weighted metering
More responsive live view and viso
More megapickles (might also be a con if you don’t need them)
Finally no primitive detachable base
Better with adapted/uncoded lenses
Edit: Native usb-c charger
Edit: more accurate image metadata
Another edit: faster refresh rate and better Visoflex
Another another edit: in-camera charging lets you connect a powerbank as you go
About 120g lighter

Con
Slower if not in live view (shutter closes and opens again even without live view)
Locks up
Heat sensitive
Primitive built in storage implementation
Worse colour implementation than M10 series (slightly)


M10-R
Pro
More responsive/faster if rf focusing
More reliable firmware
Better colour files (slightly)

Con
Short battery life
Same awful metering from M8 etc
Single card slot/storage choice
Worse live view
You still need to half disassemble it to get at the card or battery
Worse with adapted/uncoded lenses
Heavier (unless you are unnaturally wedded to brass)
Edit: Charger without native usb socket
Edit: less accurate image metadata
Another edit: slower refresh rate and worse older Visoflex


Cranking the ISO and use a nice high shutterspeed works. You don’t run into noise problems until the ISO is stratospheric. IBIS works when it works, but sometimes it seems to make my photos worse, not better. I can do without that.

 

[35photo]

M11:
Pro
Better battery life
Better metering\highlight weighted metering
More responsive live view and viso
More megapickles (might also be a con if you don’t need them)
Finally no primitive detachable base
Better with adapted/uncoded lenses

Con
Slower if not in live view (shutter closes and opens again even without live view)
Locks up
Heat sensitive
Primitive built in storage implementation
Worse colour implementation than M10 series (slightly)


M10-R
Pro
More responsive/faster if rf focusing
More reliable firmware
Better colour files (slightly)

Con
Short battery life
Same awful metering from M8 etc
Single card slot/storage choice
Worse live view
You still need to half disassemble it to get at the card or battery
Worse with adapted/uncoded lenses


Cranking the ISO and use a nice high shutterspeed works. You don’t run into noise problems until the ISO is stratospheric. IBIS works when it works, but sometimes it seems to make my photos worse, not better. I can do without that.

I love my M10-P does everything I need, once I how to process the files... not issues.. I don't need any other color M digital... I've got an M9 and and M6... I've thought about a M Mono maybe someday... I don't shoot much B&W if I l do I load up the M6 like I have now with some film and go.

 

[AveryWagg]

I've got an M11 and find it outstanding. However, the only cameras I have to compare it to is an M4 that I bought new 50 years ago, and a new M6 that I bought this past January. As you can tell, I still love film. The colours on the M11 are really good. The M11 is wicked easy to use. I set the appropriate shutter speed and f-stop and the let the ISO wander as needed. I've used the non-metered M4 for so long that the f-stop and shutter speed selected on the M11 are often pretty good. There is one M11 caveat that I can think. Low shutter speeds will cause pictures to a blur off. Handheld means that 1/90 is the lowest.

I love rolling and developing my own B&W. And I do my own C41 with scanning with an old Nikon scanner. I like taking pictures, and I like the entire process of film. Not everyone does..

 

[Richard G]

These discussions have saved me a lot of money. Might wait for the M12. Still coping fine with my M9-P I’ve had for over 12 years.