Owners: M10R vs M11 - Pros and Cons

[Godfrey]

Of course, except same as my 246, Leica has looked at it and says that it is fine and that they "cannot replicate the problem". It seems their 'testing' is ~50 frames, at least from what the processor tells me. The camera has never locked up within 50 frames. But it fairly frequently does it in 250-500 frames and very often in 500-1000.

Do you mean that you power up the camera and shoot for 250-1000 frames without ever powering the camera down or allowing it to go to sleep? My average is to make 60-70 frames in an hour's walk, and the camera sleeps frequently along the way. Or, when I'm doing negative capture, I have it powered up and working for up to about four rolls of 35mm exposures ... about 150 frames give or take.

I don't think I've ever had any camera powered up and working continuously for 250+ exposures without powering down or sleeping along the way ... That's a lot of exposures and a lot of heat. But I'll try it today with my M10-R, set to Continuous drive mode and I'll do burst of 10+ exposures.

G

 

[luuca]

yes, probably some kind of data that remains stored in the buffer memory

 

[raydm6]

Could be an issue with thermal cycling:

How Thermal Cycling Causes Electronics Failure

Thermal cycling, the repeated oscillation between temperatures over the lifetime of an electronic device, can cause failure. Learn how to avoid it in your designs.

www.ansys.com

M11 freezing with overheating

Today my M11 froze, like many other times, requiring the battery to be pulled. That much isn't new. What is new is that the camera was very hot to the touch -- every part of the camera was very hot -- lens, top plate, battery, etc. After several minutes I realized I should document this, see pict...

www.l-camera-forum.com

Today my M11 froze, like many other times, requiring the battery to be pulled. That much isn't new.

What is new is that the camera was very hot to the touch -- every part of the camera was very hot -- lens, top plate, battery, etc.

After several minutes I realized I should document this, see pictures below. The ambient air temperature was 66F, and at the time of taking the photos (3-4 minutes after pulling the battery), the camera was still in the 90s. It was definitely 40+ degrees above the ambient air temperature when I noticed the issue.

What makes this more odd is that I hadn't taken any photos or even touched the camera when this occurred. I turned it on, expecting to use it at a function, and left it on a table. About 2 hours later, I found it like this. Nobody else had touched the camera, as it was within eyesight the entire time.

What makes this even more odd is that the camera just got back from being serviced for freezing from Leica New Jersey. Leica said they couldn't reproduce any freezing with my body. It freezes every time I use it, and now evidently overheats too.

By the time I do get this resolved, I expect I'll be trading it in for an M12...

There's a technical survey posted on L-Camera Forum but I don't know how valid this link is:
Post# 2143 - M11 freeze issues [Merged]

Microsoft Forms

forms.office.com

 

[Freakscene]

Do you mean that you power up the camera and shoot for 250-1000 frames without ever powering the camera down or allowing it to go to sleep? My average is to make 60-70 frames in an hour's walk, and the camera sleeps frequently along the way. Or, when I'm doing negative capture, I have it powered up and working for up to about four rolls of 35mm exposures ... about 150 frames give or take.

I don't think I've ever had any camera powered up and working continuously for 250+ exposures without powering down or sleeping along the way ... That's a lot of exposures and a lot of heat. But I'll try it today with my M10-R, set to Continuous drive mode and I'll do burst of 10+ exposures.

G

Well, yes, exactly. It's a camera. I use it. Usually I tap the shutter release to keep it awake. It's too slow otherwise. This doesn't happen with any of my other digital cameras (Nikon, Sony and Pentax) or my M10M. In Rajasthan, my M10M overheated - the screen showed the images in negative (it was kind of cool) and soon after it refused to fire until I let it cool down, but it was clear that it overheated. It also didn't lock up - it just stopped responding, but the screen changed with button presses etc. As soon as it cooled down it was fine. My M11M stops in the middle of a shutter cycle or just spontaneously freezes and nothing will make it work or respond, and it requires pulling the battery out, leaving it for a while and powering it back up to get it going again. My M11M does this fairly often. At one point in Rajasthan my M10M had overheated and my M11M was locked up. I got the Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome out. It was fine, totally fine. I must admit I thought "what am I doing?"

 

[Freakscene]

Could be an issue with thermal cycling:

How Thermal Cycling Causes Electronics Failure

Thermal cycling, the repeated oscillation between temperatures over the lifetime of an electronic device, can cause failure. Learn how to avoid it in your designs.

www.ansys.com

M11 freezing with overheating

Today my M11 froze, like many other times, requiring the battery to be pulled. That much isn't new. What is new is that the camera was very hot to the touch -- every part of the camera was very hot -- lens, top plate, battery, etc. After several minutes I realized I should document this, see pict...

www.l-camera-forum.com

There's a technical survey posted on L-Camera Forum but I don't know how valid this link is:
Post# 2143 - M11 freeze issues [Merged]

Microsoft Forms

forms.office.com

Maybe, except my M11M has locked up at -20C when the camera was still so cold that if you'd touched it with bare skin you'd have probably frozen to it. One problem for diagnosing it is that if you open it up to put the processor onto a desktop to run the diagnostics the camera won't respond to the desktop while it is locked up. Anyway, it's not just me. Dozens of people have reported this for M11 series cameras.

 

[Freakscene]

I'm very much not a software engineer - just a lowly web developer - but this sounds like some sort of memory leak issue to me.

It sure makes my memory leak. Or waste. Or something.

 

[sojournerphoto]

Mine used to lock up, but hasn’t since the latest firmware update. That’s not to say it won’t, and I’ll report back if it does. It locked up enough to be quite annoying at one point and far more than I had expected even given the internet lore. I think changing uncoded lenses helped trigger it, but can’t be conclusive.

I’ll update if it starts again.

 

[raydm6]

Maybe, except my M11M has locked up at -20C when the camera was still so cold that if you'd touched it with bare skin you'd have probably frozen to it. One problem for diagnosing it is that if you open it up to put the processor onto a desktop to run the diagnostics the camera won't respond to the desktop while it is locked up. Anyway, it's not just me. Dozens of people have reported this for M11 series cameras.

Sorry to hear. I was not aware of the M11 freezing problem till this thread. I hope you can get it sorted out.

 

[Godfrey]

Well, yes, exactly. It's a camera. I use it. Usually I tap the shutter release to keep it awake. It's too slow otherwise. This doesn't happen with any of my other digital cameras (Nikon, Sony and Pentax) or my M10M. In Rajasthan, my M10M overheated - the screen showed the images in negative (it was kind of cool) and soon after it refused to fire until I let it cool down, but it was clear that it overheated. It also didn't lock up - it just stopped responding, but the screen changed with button presses etc. As soon as it cooled down it was fine. My M11M stops in the middle of a shutter cycle or just spontaneously freezes and nothing will make it work or respond, and it requires pulling the battery out, leaving it for a while and powering it back up to get it going again. My M11M does this fairly often. At one point in Rajasthan my M10M had overheated and my M11M was locked up. I got the Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome out. It was fine, totally fine. I must admit I thought "what am I doing?"

Well yes: It's a camera. BUT it's not a film camera: it's a complex electronic device with lots of circuitry and power in it, heating it, making it work. Not just operating a meter and an occasional (in machine terms) film advance motor.

A DSLR, any DSLR, has a lot more open body internal volume than an M does, so heat dissipation is rarely an issue with DSLRs unless the conditions are truly extreme. Digital M cameras have very little airspace inside.

I dunno. When I'm walking and I see a potential shot, and the M10-M/-R has gone to sleep, I just tap the shutter release on the way to my eye and its ready to shoot by the time I'm looking through it. Even my M6TTL takes a moment or two for the metering circuit to wake up and operate. ??

But I've got a 75mm lens fitted to my M10-R and have it set to Continuous drive mode. I'll take it on my walk today and make sure I record at least 300 frames, see if have any freezes or such. It's about 80°F now, should hit 95°F before I'm back, so that should simulate to some degree the temperatures in Rajasthan or whatever. (I could bring along an Olympus E-M1 as well for comparison sake, but that gets to be a lot to carry for a walkabout.)

G

Sorry, I don't have any M11 bodies to experiment with. I need a benefactor to offer me one... 😉

 

[sojournerphoto]

Well, yes, exactly. It's a camera. I use it. Usually I tap the shutter release to keep it awake. It's too slow otherwise. This doesn't happen with any of my other digital cameras (Nikon, Sony and Pentax) or my M10M. In Rajasthan, my M10M overheated - the screen showed the images in negative (it was kind of cool) and soon after it refused to fire until I let it cool down, but it was clear that it overheated. It also didn't lock up - it just stopped responding, but the screen changed with button presses etc. As soon as it cooled down it was fine. My M11M stops in the middle of a shutter cycle or just spontaneously freezes and nothing will make it work or respond, and it requires pulling the battery out, leaving it for a while and powering it back up to get it going again. My M11M does this fairly often. At one point in Rajasthan my M10M had overheated and my M11M was locked up. I got the Pentax K-3 iii Monochrome out. It was fine, totally fine. I must admit I thought "what am I doing?"

It’s not temperature and I’m not convinced it’s an operating memory issue either (though the latter is not really that important given it’s for Leica to sort - responding to others in thread.

However, mine restores immediately on pulling and reinserting the battery. No need to wait. Also, never stopped mid shutter cycle, just didn’t fire. One day it will be perfect!

 

[CP93]

I have an ingrained habit of turning my M10-R off between subjects, but most of my subjects are stationary.

 

[Godfrey]

Do you mean that you power up the camera and shoot for 250-1000 frames without ever powering the camera down or allowing it to go to sleep? My average is to make 60-70 frames in an hour's walk, and the camera sleeps frequently along the way. Or, when I'm doing negative capture, I have it powered up and working for up to about four rolls of 35mm exposures ... about 150 frames give or take.

I don't think I've ever had any camera powered up and working continuously for 250+ exposures without powering down or sleeping along the way ... That's a lot of exposures and a lot of heat. But I'll try it today with my M10-R, set to Continuous drive mode and I'll do burst of 10+ exposures.

Just a quick follow up: I took the M10-R and M10-M out on successive day walks this week, in the abominable heat wave we've been having, and did my best to never let them rest or power off for the whole typical hour or two of walking. I made about 200 exposures with the M10M and about 150 exposures with the M10R ... I managed this by either having the drive mode set to continuous high or having auto-bracketing turned on. I honestly don't know how people make 500 exposures in a similar two hour walk: it's a serious struggle for me to make more than about 30-40 shots even with the drive mode set like that! And I don't know what people do with all those exposures either ... it will take me weeks to review and select the keepers, render them to finish!

Must say: the M10-R makes some absolutely stunning color work with the Pentax 43 and the Heliar Classic 50 lenses! I haven't used the R as much as the Monochrom, but it really does give me the same wonderful feeling as albeit with a slight reduction in the absolute crispness and extraordinary dynamic range.

No freezes or lock ups with either, not a one. So whatever the issue you're having with the M11M and freezes, hopefully an upcoming firmware update will address it.

G

 

[sojournerphoto]

Took the M11P for a walk this morning - needed to get out as the week has been pretty full on - and the screen went dark from the centre, leaving bright edges. It's recovered now, so possibly temperature, but it's going to have to go to Leica for replacement under warranty🙁 It still photographs OK, but settings don't work and you can't review pictures or exposure effectively.

One from the walk

 

[Richard G]

I’m very sorry to hear of Freakscene’s problems. Some of this does remind me of what an 8G SanDisk Extreme card did with the M9. I had repeated lockups on my M9-P and less so but also my Monochrom M. I would have to remove the battery AND put in a different card. Without another card the session was over. Many here did not credit any of this, but several of us had this problem. In ten years with Lexar and Panasonic cards this has not recurred with either camera. Kudos Godfrey for his theory on too little air in an electronic Leica, and for testing the theory in the field. I handled the M11 D. It is dense and tiny.

After one service of my M9 a red light comes on when I handle the camera, even when it is switched off. It’s annoying and suggests some rogue live circuit somewhere. Before digital the most complicated shutter actuation was in the M5. Then the M6. And now very much these digitals. Once again the M9 could never really handle continuous. It shouldn’t have been offered. Never use it.

So 1. Try a Lexar card. 2. Take the temperature of the camera when it’s turned off, and then just on, in comparison to your better behaved camera. 3. Insist on replacement camera. Let them know we’re all watching. This thread cured my interest in any new M digital right now.

A good technician should not insist on replicating the problem. Are they calling you a liar? From your report they should know both the software deficiencies and the hardware bottlenecks. If it’s the latter, my bet is on the shutter set up and some inappropriate contact. They should dismantle and inspect, if they won’t replace.

 

[bjorke]

I'm very much not a software engineer - just a lowly web developer - but this sounds like some sort of memory leak issue to me.

Given that the M240 M10 and M11 all have freezing behavior the (mostly shared) processor is a likely culprit. I've found that if I change profile data and immediately turn off my M10, the changes aren't save (I now always give it some time, and save profile changes to the card, too -- though chnages to profiles are, by definition, rare). Similarly, I've seen reports of people changing manual lens selection and then the camera forgets it -- I suspect that there's power-off immediately-after involved there, too, since it happens to some people and not others, and is not easily replicated at the shop.

My guess: there's temporary memory that's only "hot" when the camera is on, and more durable memory (e.g. some sort of eprom) that saves profiles, and then the most-durable memory, the SD card. The Maestro processor is running several tasks at once at any tme and the chnages from temp to durable are background processes. Similarly, rapid firing might be overwhelming the buffer addressing and allocation (which might also be vulnerable to small variations in each memory chip). Once the chip falls behind the shutter clicks: CRASH until power-cycled (pull the battery).

Afaik all generations of Maestro processors are based on the Fujitsu "Milbeaut" media device.

I've had my M246 freeze, but so far not my M10-R. It's always been (for the Monochrom) when I'm working quickly, say four or five shots in a row in a changeable crowd. Again, not so far with the M10-R. Give it time.

 

[splitimageview]

Lots of M11 complaints in the comment section...

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I’m very sorry to hear of Freakscene’s problems. Some of this does remind me of what an 8G SanDisk Extreme card did with the M9. I had repeated lockups on my M9-P and less so but also my Monochrom M..

Sandisk 8GByte Extreme Pro: will not work with my EP-2, CX-1, or WIN7 machine.

So my Sandisk Extreme Pro 8GByte SDHC card arrived. I used it in the M8, before trying in the M9. The latter is where the problems were reported. With the M8: Filled the buffer, deleted images. reviewed images, repeated for 420MBytes of continuous fire. I never put the card into my M9. This...

rangefinderforum.com

Yeah- Sandisk really screwed up with that Card. The card was the problem, not the M9. Sandisk finally fixed it on the later Rev Level, the third card that they sent me.

 

[Freakscene]

Lots of M11 complaints in the comment section...

This guy’s M11 sounds like the twin of my M11M. Leica finally took it back, by the way, so I am rid of it.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

After version 1.176 on the M9, Leica shifted firmware development to in-house from outsourcing it to a company that knew what it was doing.
It's infuriating. That I do not have the source code and compiler.

 

[Freakscene]

After version 1.176 on the M9, Leica shifted firmware development to in-house from outsourcing it to a company that knew what it was doing.
It's infuriating. That I do not have the source code and compiler.

VisualDSP++ or CrossCore Embedded Studio will open and can compile the source code, but it’s complicated from there. I assume, of course, that you would be up to it Brian. I certainly was not. A specialist software engineer for optical hardware helped me load the BG55 firmware into upgraded M9 generation cameras that had the S8612 sensor covers. But that is a world away from actually tinkering with the firmware.