Thinking about a SL2-S yet again vs Panasonic S1

[boojum]

If smeary corners are your thing then by all means run your M lens on a nice thick Sony stack.

And what would prevent someone from cleaning their own sensor cover with the Leica SL or any other digital camera for that matter? I clean all mine whenever needed.

And I've had Leicas dating back to the 1970's, including M9s, M240, Sl and SL-2S. I've never spent even a single penny on Leica repair or refurbishment. I mention this just for perspective for all the people who post how little money they spend on their non Leica cameras.

Yes, I overlooked the Leica - Sony mismatch. Regarding sensor cleaning, I was specific to the Q3. I've cleaned the sensor covers in my M-bodies just as the factory recommends, with one of those sticky wands, I forget the name. I have the video of someone in Wetzlar using it to clean the sensor on an M8 IIRC.

 

[boojum]

If smeary corners are your thing then by all means run your M lens on a nice thick Sony stack.

And what would prevent someone from cleaning their own sensor cover with the Leica SL or any other digital camera for that matter? I clean all mine whenever needed.

And I've had Leicas dating back to the 1970's, including M9s, M240, Sl and SL-2S. I've never spent even a single penny on Leica repair or refurbishment. I mention this just for perspective for all the people who post how little money they spend on their non Leica cameras.

You have provoked interest and curiosity. So I dragged out the A7M III, slapped on an M > E adapter and put on the LLL Elcan for now. I'll try the Skyllaney Bertele Sonnar later as it is the best M mount I have. I'll see just how bad that smear is and if I can live with it. Some fast clicks of my very messy kitchen reveal a sensor that does color very well. I was impressed. Good color and not over-saturated which is often a misleading characteristic confused with realism. You have stirred the idle moronic loafer at your peril, but more likely the moron's ;o)

Tape at 11:00.

 

[brusby]

You have provoked interest and curiosity. So I dragged out the A7M III, slapped on an M > E adapter and put on the LLL Elcan for now. I'll try the Skyllaney Bertele Sonnar later as it is the best M mount I have. I'll see just how bad that smear is and if I can live with it. Some fast clicks of my very messy kitchen reveal a sensor that does color very well. I was impressed. Good color and not over-saturated which is often a misleading characteristic confused with realism. You have stirred the idle moronic loafer at your peril, but more likely the moron's ;o)

Tape at 11:00.

Some M lenses, particularly longer focal lengths, perform ok with the Sony thick sensor stack but others, mostly wider angles and lenses with rear groups that are located closer to the sensor . . . not so well. And among those that perform ok, even their performance may vary with focus distance, as the rear elements move closer and farther from the sensor, and aperture. It's just a crap shoot trying to use M lenses on sensors not designed with them in mind.

I've got a bunch of older M lenses. Worrying about the cost of a battery or two is false economy for me particularly when I can get an as-new SL2 or SL2-S for half the price of even a new Canon camera. Besides I don't think I paid over about $125 each for my SL batteries.

Might they become obsolete soon. Well everything eventually does, but Leica has a slew of cameras that use that same battery -- all of the SL series plus doesn't your Q and all the other Q cameras use the same one?

I feel pretty safe I'll be gone before they are.

 

[boojum]

Some M lenses, particularly longer focal lengths, perform ok with the Sony thick sensor stack but others, mostly wider angles and lenses with rear groups that are located closer to the sensor . . . not so well. And among those that perform ok, even their performance may vary with focus distance, as the rear elements move closer and farther from the sensor, and aperture. It's just a crap shoot trying to use M lenses on sensors not designed with them in mind.

I've got a bunch of older M lenses. Worrying about the cost of a battery or two is false economy for me particularly when I can get an as-new SL2 or SL2-S for half the price of even a new Canon camera. Besides I don't think I paid over about $125 each for my SL batteries.

Might they become obsolete soon. Well everything eventually does, but Leica has a slew of cameras that use that same battery -- all of the SL series plus doesn't your Q and all the other Q cameras use the same one?

I feel pretty safe I'll be gone before they are.

I brought up the battery thing between HB and Leica because of the capacity and price disparity. Q and Q2 use the same battery. Q3 has a higher capacity battery but the good news is that the aftermarket Q2 batteries work in the Q3. The Q2 is 1860 mAh while the Q3 is 2200 mAh. The Q2 can be used in the Q3 but apparently this battery will not power the camera for 6K movies, or something. This battery is also usable in the SL series. Amazon sells two Q2 batteries and charger for US$182. Amazon product ASIN B0CZ7NRM8K B&H sells the Leica Q3 battery for US$200 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1768279-REG/leica_19531_battery_bp_scl6_black.html

Is it a really big deal? No. It is another niggling annoyance from a company which presents itself as "better than" or in German, "Wir sind besser als Dich". I have seen the rough side of life and a common saying is it's OK to talk the talk but can you walk the walk? These guys in Wetzlar seem better at talking. Yes, they do make good cameras. Yes, you have not needed repairs. But scads of others have needed repairs done and it is an exercise in agony. Leitz could up their game.

So that's my wheeze and it will remain so until Leitz ups their game.

 

[boojum]

Some M lenses, particularly longer focal lengths, perform ok with the Sony thick sensor stack but others, mostly wider angles and lenses with rear groups that are located closer to the sensor . . . not so well. And among those that perform ok, even their performance may vary with focus distance, as the rear elements move closer and farther from the sensor, and aperture. It's just a crap shoot trying to use M lenses on sensors not designed with them in mind.

I've got a bunch of older M lenses. Worrying about the cost of a battery or two is false economy for me particularly when I can get an as-new SL2 or SL2-S for half the price of even a new Canon camera. Besides I don't think I paid over about $125 each for my SL batteries.

Might they become obsolete soon. Well everything eventually does, but Leica has a slew of cameras that use that same battery -- all of the SL series plus doesn't your Q and all the other Q cameras use the same one?

I feel pretty safe I'll be gone before they are.

About the lenses, I'll try a lot of M mounts to see how they work. The Jupiter 35mm is definitely a non-starter. Fo those not familiar with the Jupiter 12 35mm here is a link: Jupiter 12 35mm f2.8 Lens Review

 

[brusby]

I brought up the battery thing between HB and Leica because of the capacity and price disparity. Q and Q2 use the same battery. Q3 has a higher capacity battery but the good news is that the aftermarket Q2 batteries work in the Q3. The Q2 is 1860 mAh while the Q3 is 2200 mAh. The Q2 can be used in the Q3 but apparently this battery will not power the camera for 6K movies, or something. This battery is also usable in the SL series. Amazon sell two Q2 batteries and charger for US$182. Amazon product ASIN B0CZ7NRM8K B&H sells the Leica Q3 battery for US$200 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1768279-REG/leica_19531_battery_bp_scl6_black.html

Is it a really big deal? No. It is another niggling annoyance from a company which presents itself as "better than" or in German, "Wir sind besser als Dich". I have seen the rough side of life and a common saying is it's OK to talk the talk but can you walk the walk? These guys in Wetzlar seem better at talking. Yes, they do make good cameras. Yes, you have not needed repairs. But scads of others have needed repairs done and it is an exercise in agony. Leitz could up their game.

So that's my wheeze and it will remain so until Leitz ups their game.

I''m not defending Leica or their practices. Quite the contrary if you read my first post here. But bashing them for their pricing and poor service has been done ad nauseam.

What I am trying to do, rather than just rant one again about yesterday's news, is present my personal, real world experience which seems at odds with what others here are claiming or implying, i.e., that extravagant ownership and maintenance costs are the norm when buying a Leica camera. Is my experience the exception to the rule. Perhaps. Nevertheless, it is my actual history with Leica camera ownership over many years.

This way, anyone who might be interested in making an informed decision at least has some accurate real world experience to evaluate along with all the hair-on-fire claims.

 

[shawn]

Last week I saw a S1H for around $1200 from one of the sites I usually watch. It would have had return privledges and a 6 month warranty. It sold quickly. They had a S1 at just over $800 with less than 1800 shots on it too. That lasted a couple of days before it was gone.

 

[Freakscene]

So that's my wheeze and it will remain so until Leitz ups their game.

Leitz and Leica parted ways in 1984. The Leica companies no longer have anything to do with the Leitz family. My father stayed in touch with members of the Leitz family well into the 2010s. They were very keen to sever the association between themselves and the new companies that were not theirs, for clarity more than anything else.

 

[boojum]

Leitz and Leica parted ways in 1984. The Leica companies no longer have anything to do with the Leitz family. My father stayed in touch with members of the Leitz family well into the 2010s. They were very keen to sever the association between themselves and the new companies that were not theirs, for clarity rather than anything else.

Oh, boy, this gets confusing. I ran the Wikipedia and they list four Leica companies that came form the now non-existent Leitz company. I'll have to stop knocking "The Trolls of Wetzlar" and start with "The Trolls of Leica" but I doubt I will pursue it any longer. There are other marques that are as good, less expensive, better supported. I was just running some M-mount lenses on the A7M III and decided to put on its old 24 - 240 zoom. Nice lens, nice color, great usable range, easy to use. What's not to like? Should I want to spray and pray the hi burst rate is 10 frames per second. That's a lot of images. Until the buffer fills, yes. That's 35 RAW, 50 compressed 12-bit raw. The JPG amount was not even listed.

Anyway, there are options, viable options. Maybe @brusby is right about edge smear with M--mount glass on the Sony sensors. OK, do not use M-mount lenses. Problem solved. Options, I have options. That's always good.

 

[Archiver]

Short update: went and tried the SL2S and S1. Bought the... S1! Out the door for errands now. News at 11.

 

[shawn]

Great, enjoy it.

It is *extremely* customizable and if you have any questions on that let me know. I put the AR selection on the button on the side of the EVF, set the front switch for focus peaking, moved the play button onto the D pad and tweaked the D pad for AF near/far bias and I think I set the delete button for metering mode.

Take advantage of the My Menu and customizable quick menu where you can put all your most used things into those.

BTW, just did a quick search and B&H has the software upgrade for $150. On ebay there is a seller that has a bunch of copies for $60, that one was labeled for the S5 II but I thought I read somewhere the key was the same between the S1 and S5 II. Trying to find that again.

 

[Archiver]

Update! In stereooo!

My local had both a SL2S and S1, so it was a perfect opportunity to try them both side by side. My immediate impression was that the SL2S had a rich, luxurious haptic feeling which one would hope for from such an expensive camera. But oddly, the grip didn't seem to fall into my hand correctly, despite adjusting my grip now and again. By contrast, the S1 was heavier but fit like magic. I had to grip both cameras repeatedly to disappointingly confirm that the much cheaper Panasonic felt better to grip and use than the otherwise luxurious and high quality Leica.

Then came tests with the EVF and a couple of M lenses. I brought the Distagon 35 and Summicron 50, and shot them side by side along with the Summicron 35 SL that was with the SL2S. I have to say, part of the experience of luxury goods (and I make no bones about it, Leica has become luxury goods) is the experience of use, and the shutter sound/feel of the Leica is just... something. The Panasonic's shutter is quiet and damped, but the SL2S shutter has a soft but definite and satisfying feeling.

The Leica EVF was definitely very crisp and clear, same as the LCD - somehow they have really come through with the display tech on the SL2S, and it is a joy to look through and focus. But the S1 is absolutely high standard as well, with a large and bright LCD screen, and huge viewfinder which was only a touch less constrasty and clear than the SL2S. So for more than three times the price, I could justify using the S1 for eye-level shooting.

The Leica looked freaking amazing. You can't help but admire it, especially with a tiny Summicron 50 mounted on it. Gahhh so beautiful! But it's relatively discreet because of the blacked out Leica script. The S1 weighs just over a kilo, which may cause an issue at some stage. I carry my M9 to dinner, out with family and friends, sporting events, and I do feel that the S1 will cause me to either adjust my expectations or choose venues more carefully. It's only 90g more than the SL2S, but you can feel it, somehow.

The S1 has a tilting LCD screen which also pivots to the right, which is perfect for waist level and low level shooting, and interviews with the camera at an off-angle to the subject. I immediately found myself flipping up the screen to take chest level shots, something the SL2S couldn't do. With the huge and bright EVF and more importantly, the feeling of the grip, I found myself moving around the store and shooting with the Distagon on the S1. Disappointingly, I didn't feel quite the same ahhhh can shoot everything now with the SL2S and Distagon. I felt it when it had the Summicron 35 SL, but not really with manual M lenses.

The thing that really clinched it was the firmware. One of the first things I checked was whether it had the paid firmware update, and to my utter delight, it did! V-log turned up in the Picture Profile menu as I scrolled through. The current firmware was 1.7 from 2020, but it was an easy matter to update it to the latest Jan 2025 firmware once I got it home. Yes, I bought the S1, and it came with a spare battery, which means I may even be able to get away without buying spares for a while.

Price wise, it was only $1350 AUD, a great bargain. The S1 was around $1500 secondhand in 2023, which was a very decent price as it retailed for about $3600 originally, but $1350 with the v-log upgrade is incredible.

It's certainly heavier than I'm used to, but the grip feels superb. I mean, just superb. The curved rubber area under the shutter lets the middle finger lock into place, and it has curvature on the lower palm side, similar to the G9, which has the best grip of any camera I've held. This feels like a Camera of Significance (see earlier thread) and I'm looking forward to pairing it with my S5 for work. Two full frame mirrorless cams with the same lens mount! Yes! Photos to come!

 

[shawn]

That is awesome that it already had V-Log installed, congratulations.

If you use an ARCA clamp on your tripod consider this add on aftermarket plate for the S1.



It integrates well with the body and adds just enough extra height for my large hands. Likewise if that store ever gets a used Panny grip in try it on the body. It fits so well and the curves remind me of the feeling of my F5. Also handy for video since it will run down the grip battery first then auto switch to the internal. You can change the grip battery while it is still running and it will switch back to the grip battery without missing a beat.

BTW make sure you change the EVF to 120hz, it defaults to 60 for some dumb reason.

 

[Archiver]

@shawn Thank you for the tip about 60hz vs 120hz, I didn't know it would make such a difference visually. There's a secondhand grip at another shop, I might get that, too. It's exciting to think of all the ways I can use this - it's a full frame G9 on steroids, and I love the G9 for its handling and controls. I might even black out the Lumix logo like yours, it looks pretty slick, haha!

 

[Ko.Fe.]

It good purchase. Excellent condition S1 is 900 Euro.
But over one kilo remark. Reminds me how cameramans were tested during Soviet TV. They were given glass of vodka and asked walk straight with camera on shoulder after it kicked-in.
Met one Iranian professor who escaped from regime to keep his kids from brainwashing. He was one year before pension and have to start it all over in Canada. Had his shoulder ruined by cameras.
Nothing changed. Real pros still needs to be able to deal with heavy weight.

 

[Archiver]

Initial thoughts after a few days, and whether I regret not buying the SL2-S instead:

Size and weight were always a concern. From the first time I held the S1 in 2019, it was apparent just how heavy and large it was. My biggest camera is the Canon 5D Mark II, which still weighs about 810g to the S1's 1024g. It's noticeable, and definitely a big change compared with the M9 that is regularly in my bag. But I bought the S1 as an video-capable alternative to the M9, and I'm trying to convince myself that by carrying the S1, I don't have to carry anything else that shoots video. It's heavy but not more than the M9 and Panasonic G9 in the same bag, which I sometimes do.

Given that I used to carry the 5D Mark II with 24-105 and 35L, I can get used to the S1 plus a couple of M mount or small Sigma Contemporary lenses. Give me another four years and mayyyybe I'll get a 785g SL3-S when the prices are better, unless Panasonic make another flagship pro body but of that weight.

S1 - Melburn by Archiver, on Flickr

Handling and haptics; the S1 was designed as Panasonic's premium flagship professional body for L mount, and they pulled out all the stops with build quality and handling. The buttons feel positive and smooth, the grip molds itself to the hand, and there is a plethora of custom buttons all over the camera. The camera feels so solid and reliable, and the grip means you just want to shoot with it.

S1 - He Points The Way by Archiver, on Flickr

Manual focus: As the S1 was bought with the intention of a Leica M9 alternative, I wanted to be able to use M mount lenses with minimal negative impact. My most used M mount lens is the Distagon 35 (thank you to Michael Bialecki and other RFFer's for the recommendation) and it works a treat on the S1 (and S5). Super sharp, lots of pop, and great colours. The Summicron 50 also works great on the S1.

The EVF is huge and clear, and the punch-in is considerably better than the S5. With the diopter correctly adjusted and focus peaking on, sometimes I don't even need to punch in. Especially with a fast lens, focus can be accurate and snappy as I continue to learn to dial it in and recognize when it's in focus. Obviously, it's very different from the rangefinder split-image method, which I still think is the fastest manual focus system, but the S1's huge EVF makes a lot of difference.

S1 - Dumpling by Archiver, on Flickr

Do I regret not buying the SL2-S? Not really. The S1 has a tilting screen, which has been very useful already for waist and chest level shooting, or shooting overhead. The SL2S has a fixed screen, making those actions much more difficult, if not impossible. My brief time handling them side by side showed me that the S1, despite being heavier and chunkier, sits much better in the hand. Do I like the IDEA of the SL2S? Of course. But the practicality of the S1 is right up there. For future updates, I'll start a new thread here in the SL forum.

 

[Archiver]

I... I don't quite know how to say this, but I did a thing. 😅 News at 11.

 

[AusDLK]

the S1 all the way. the lack of button controls on the SL series seems like a good idea until you need to change something quickly.

 

[Archiver]

Sooo, 26 days ago, I bought the Panasonic S1 after an A-B comparison in the shop with the Leica SL2S. As I've been a Panasonic user for about 13 years, the S1 felt very familiar, and the price and haptics won me over.

Over the next few weeks, I shot with it every day, putting it in my shoulder bag like I would carry my M9 or Panasonic GX85, using it with the Panasonic 50mm f1.8, 24-105 and the M mount Zeiss Distagon 35mm f1.4 and Leica Summicron-M 50mm f2. It felt fantastic, but I just couldn't shake the sense of the 1kg weight. The original intention was to use it as an everyday camera for both fun and work, something to replace my M9 but with pro video capabilities. The SL2S was still in the back of my mind, because it although it didn't seem to handle as well as the S1, it was noticeably lighter, and I want to use M lenses like the Elmarit 28 ASPH and the Zeiss Biogon 21mm f2.8, which don't play that well with the S1.

A few days ago, I went back to the shop and played with the SL2S with Summicron 35 SL, and kept at it while adjusting my mental expectations. Then I did some calculations for how many weeks I'll be on instant noodles, rice and beans, and figured it was going to be worth it. AUD $5500 later and the SL2S kit was mine. This was an awesome deal, because this kit originally cost over $10k AUD, and the Summicron 35 SL alone goes for $2750 secondhand. I've been wanting a Panasonic 35mm f1.8 for a long time, and this seemed like a convenient, albet more expensive, way to get it.

This is the first SL camera I've ever used, and the learning curve has been steep. I've used it on multiple jobs in the past week, and I've struggled a bit because I'm so used to Panasonic's plethora of function buttons and their menu system. But I've gone deep into the menus and customized the control dials and buttons so they give me instant access to four shooting profiles and settings that cover my needs.

The image quality is something else. So many people say that the SL2S is like a Panasonic S1 or S5 in a Leica body, and to some extent I agree, but the way the colours work in the DNG files is significantly different from the Panasonics. With an extensively tweaked Lightroom profile, I'm getting closer and closer to a M9 look, which is my benchmark standard for image quality and colour. Having the ability to shoot with M9 colours in a modern, weathersealed body with pro quality video and autofocus is looking very promising.

The body is not as it seemed in my initial comparison with the S1. While it lacks the deeply ergonomic rubber grip of the S1, the SL2S body is as thin as the M9, and the left side is curved and rounded more like a M body or vintage SLR, unlike the S1 which is a fair bit thicker, and rectangular on the side. I wonder if Leica had this in mind when they designed the SL2/S bodies.

Interestingly, the S1 feels and performs perfectly for work. I shoot stills and video for sports and documentary jobs, and the S1 paired with the Panasonic 24-105 suits me just fine. I've just completed a basketball shoot, and the SL2S and 35 SL did surprisingly well. My usual kit before this expensive upgrade was the S5 + 24-105 and the micro four thirds Panasonic G9 with Olympus 17mm f1.2 Pro, so the S1 and SL2S will be the kit from now on. The S5 will be for when I need a B cam for video, extra angle in interviews, or a light full frame body.

Photos to come, hopefully after the weekend.

 

[Mute-on]

Camera Exchange?