Using Leitz Summar 50mm F/2 with coated filters

[RussPhoto]

Hello everyone!
Any recommendation on using coated modern filters with uncoated Leitz Summar 50mm to reduce flare? My copy of Summar is uncoated. What do you think about B+W Filters MASTER CLEAR MRC NANO? These type of filters are coated on both sides of the filter glass. Will it do the trick? I know I have to use the lens shade😉
Thank you!

 

[Rayt]

I had an uncoated Summar that suffered from veiling flare. Though multi coating on a filter will help the filter but will do nothing about the lens. I personally will use a filter to protect the soft glass but it will not cut down flare inherent in the lens.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

B&W filters are first rate.

With the Summar: my copy had a lot of flare due to loss of paint on the sides of the glass elements, producing internal reflections. I blackened the sides of the inner groups, greatly reduced flare. Also examine the inner surfaces for haze. With as old as the Summar is, "Bloom" (tarnish) on the glass acts as a natural coating.

 

[Nitroplait]

A filter adds two additional glass-to-air surfaces. You will see no improvement, at best, more likely some degree of degradation - although not much because it is a good filter.

 

[RussPhoto]

B&W filters are first rate.

With the Summar: my copy had a lot of flare due to loss of paint on the sides of the glass elements, producing internal reflections. I blackened the sides of the inner groups, greatly reduced flare. Also examine the inner surfaces for haze. With as old as the Summar is, "Bloom" (tarnish) on the glass acts as a natural coating.

Brian, I actually did some partial outer touch ups with a black paint and now it looks perfect (see attached) however when I look through the glass I still can see some paint loss and I don't understand where is it? Looks like it's somewhere inside. I've seen it on many Summar lenses. Any idea how to get there?

 

[RussPhoto]

A filter adds two additional glass-to-air surfaces. You will see no improvement, at best, more likely some degree of degradation - although not much because it is a good filter.

But that one is a special one - nano!😉 They boast that the filter is fully color-neutral and highly transparent. Featuring B+W's MRC nano coating!! I might get one to test if it works

 

[neal3k]

I protect my Summar from direct sunlight with my always-ready sun shade; my baseball cap.

 

[RussPhoto]

I protect my Summar from direct sunlight with my always-ready sun shade; my baseball cap.

Baseball cap as a shade seems like a good solution!👍Thanks!

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Brian, I actually did some partial outer touch ups with a black paint and now it looks perfect (see attached) however when I look through the glass I still can see some paint loss and I don't understand where is it? Looks like it's somewhere inside. I've seen it on many Summar lenses. Any idea how to get there?

I'll take a look at my not-so-good Summar, if the glass comes out of the fixture. It looks like the paint loss is between the glass and the metal of the fixture.

I have the Walz Filter for my Summar.

I could not find a Baseball Cap marked "Summar", but the hood is. I would not know which baseball cap to wear with the lens, but I do know what hood to use.

 

[RussPhoto]

I'll take a look at my not-so-good Summar, if the glass comes out of the fixture. It looks like the paint loss is between the glass and the metal of the fixture.

I have the Walz Filter for my Summar.

I could not find a Baseball Cap marked "Summar", but the hood is. I would not know which baseball cap to wear with the lens, but I do know what hood to use.

I think that was an idea using baseball cap as a hood shade neal3k mentioned about (see attached). Image is not mine, I downloaded it from internet, some photographers really practise this method.😃

 

[TenEleven]

Also when people say flare they often mean two discrete things. I had a quick dig around my photos and found two examples. There are not interesting photos, but highlight the concept well.

This is flare that happens when unwanted light hits the lens obliquely. It introduces reflection artifacts and usually lowers the overall scene contrast drastically as seen here. It happens both with uncoated and coated optics. With uncoated optics the outcome is of course much more severe, as seen here. The correct counter-measure for this is shielding the lens with a hood, with your hand, or anything else on hand.


This is flare (although, I usually call it bloom or glare) that can happen with older lenses where the highlights bleed out into the shadows due to under-corrected aberrations lowering scene contrast in that area although not as severely as above. This happens with lenses that are both coated and un-coated. In my experience coating does not move the needle much in this case. Stopping down helps. Unless the lens is cloudy or scratched - in that case there is not much that can be done.

 

[TenEleven]

Brian, I actually did some partial outer touch ups with a black paint and now it looks perfect (see attached) however when I look through the glass I still can see some paint loss and I don't understand where is it? Looks like it's somewhere inside. I've seen it on many Summar lenses. Any idea how to get there?

I have had that happen when I applied new black paint over the old degraded one.

My theory is that the old paint has bubbled up underneath and when I (or you) apply a new layer we're not doing much because the problem is underneath. Sadly the only solution I have found is to completely strip the old paint and do it over.

 

[peterm1]

I agree that the coated filter will do nothing to change the characteristics of the lens. Assuming the actual lens elements to be clean and in good condition (in which case no work is needed on them) I would strongly recommend using an appropriate hood which should help to some extent - at least in some situations. Only problem is they are hard to find and the Leitz ones have a clamp fit (not a screw fit). But I do own an old after-market "Walz" E34mm screw on hood in E34 thread I believe which matches the thread on the lens. I bought it years ago intending to one day buy a Summar but when they attracted a cult following and the prices escalated alarmingly I put it on the back burner. One day perhaps! BTW you may have to also use a method often used by people with such uncoated lenses - use your hand to shade the lens and block any lateral rays from the periphery. Also if seeking a hood you may find better success doing what I have sometimes done - find a cheap Chinese metal hood in say 36mm or 39mm diameter and see if you can find a stepping ring to go with it. The stepping ring would need to be 34mm-36mm or 34mm to 39mm respectively. Another alternative is to find a Leica FICUS hood - a telescoping hood that is designed for use on 5mm/90mm and 135mm lenses. These however have a 36mm diameter so the base would need to be packed suitably to convert it to 34mm.

 

[RussPhoto]

I have had that happen when I applied new black paint over the old degraded one.

My theory is that the old paint has bubbled up underneath and when I (or you) apply a new layer we're not doing much because the problem is underneath. Sadly the only solution I have found is to completely strip the old paint and do it over.

Oh, I see it now... Looks like "Schneideritis" on old LF Schneider-Kreuznach lenses, no affect on image quality except flare. I'd probably avoid to pill off that paint myself, can do something wrong. Thanks!

 

[RussPhoto]

Also when people say flare they often mean two discrete things. I had a quick dig around my photos and found two examples. There are not interesting photos, but highlight the concept well.

This is flare that happens when unwanted light hits the lens obliquely. It introduces reflection artifacts and usually lowers the overall scene contrast drastically as seen here. It happens both with uncoated and coated optics. With uncoated optics the outcome is of course much more severe, as seen here. The correct counter-measure for this is shielding the lens with a hood, with your hand, or anything else on hand.
View attachment 4861767

This is flare (although, I usually call it bloom or glare) that can happen with older lenses where the highlights bleed out into the shadows due to under-corrected aberrations lowering scene contrast in that area although not as severely as above. This happens with lenses that are both coated and un-coated. In my experience coating does not move the needle much in this case. Stopping down helps. Unless the lens is cloudy or scratched - in that case there is not much that can be done.
View attachment 4861765

Second image, this is what exactly I meant... When using the lens on Leica monochrom body with deep red filter flare is avoidable however with color it doesn't work that way. Thanks!

 

[RussPhoto]

I agree that the coated filter will do nothing to change the characteristics of the lens. Assuming the actual lens elements to be clean and in good condition (in which case no work is needed on them) I would strongly recommend using an appropriate hood which should help to some extent - at least in some situations. Only problem is they are hard to find and the Leitz ones have a clamp fit (not a screw fit). But I do own an old after-market "Walz" E34mm screw on hood in E34 thread I believe which matches the thread on the lens. I bought it years ago intending to one day buy a Summar but when they attracted a cult following and the prices escalated alarmingly I put it on the back burner. One day perhaps! BTW you may have to also use a method often used by people with such uncoated lenses - use your hand to shade the lens and block any lateral rays from the periphery. Also if seeking a hood you may find better success doing what I have sometimes done - find a cheap Chinese metal hood in say 36mm or 39mm diameter and see if you can find a stepping ring to go with it. The stepping ring would need to be 34mm-36mm or 34mm to 39mm respectively. Another alternative is to find a Leica FICUS hood - a telescoping hood that is designed for use on 5mm/90mm and 135mm lenses. These however have a 36mm diameter so the base would need to be packed suitably to convert it to 34mm.

I used my Summar with Leica FOOKH A36 that I'm using with my LTM Summaron 35 also and it works fine, no light fall. Thanks!

​

 

[Erik van Straten]

The best thing to do is to look for a post war reconditioned scratch free coated Summar. They are around. They are wonderful picture makers.


gelatin silver print (summar 50mm f2) leica lll

Amsterdam, 2020

 

[Coldkennels]

I used my Summar with Leica FOOKH A36 that I'm using with my LTM Summaron 35 also and it works fine, no light fall. Thanks!

In my experience the FOOKH is fractionally too short for the Summar. I started using one for a bit at Erik's suggestion and started running into flare every so often.

The FISON for the 50mm Elmar is slightly longer and does a much better job at eliminating flare. The catch is that you really can't use it with an A36 filter - that combination is too long and you get some severe mechanical vignetting.

The correct hood is the SOOMP. There are third-party clones; I have one marked "PHOTAX LONDON". That's the best option if you can find one.

 

[RussPhoto]

In my experience the FOOKH is fractionally too short for the Summar. I started using one for a bit at Erik's suggestion and started running into flare every so often.

The FISON for the 50mm Elmar is slightly longer and does a much better job at eliminating flare. The catch is that you really can't use it with an A36 filter - that combination is too long and you get some severe mechanical vignetting.

The correct hood is the SOOMP. There are third-party clones; I have one marked "PHOTAX LONDON". That's the best option if you can find one.

Thanks, I'll try to experiment with other hoods. Leica SOOGZ also could be used with attached E39 filter, same heights as FOOKH but you can use filter on it with no problem.

​

 

[RussPhoto]

I have had that happen when I applied new black paint over the old degraded one.

My theory is that the old paint has bubbled up underneath and when I (or you) apply a new layer we're not doing much because the problem is underneath. Sadly the only solution I have found is to completely strip the old paint and do it over.

TenEleven, What would be starting point to strip the old paint off? I decided to do it myself, I tried to apply 99% rubbing alcohol but it's very solid like a sort of hard shell and doesn't go away at all. I'm a bit afraid to force it with utility knife to avoid damage to cemented lens element