digital Detox

I go for walks almost every day, walks of 1-2 hours length. During that time, my phone is in my bag playing music or an audio book to my headphones. No screen required: I tell the phone what I want to hear by voice control. Since my cameras are already configured, I use them by manipulating the focus, aperture, shutter speed, and shutter release controls.

So yeah, I 'step away' from screens almost every day. It doesn't feel any different from any other normal day. 😉

G
I'm currenlty reading the book 'Digital Minimalism' by Cal Newport.
It has some topic about the benefits of walking too.
Aswel as other good insights.

Also, the benefits of regular times of solitude, what most people in society need too every now and then.
 
I understand avoiding the cost burden of film, and the hassle. But for those of us 100% devoted to digital we can just put the camera up on the shelf for a while. And I keep the stress low by shooting JPG and using the files SOOC. I suppose I should play with the DNG's in an editor, but . . .
Don't do it. You've got more important things to do than stare at a screen pulling sliders around. (Admittedly, it's fun but I shot a lot of slide film and so editing was simpler: "No, no, no, maybe, no, no, yes!, no, no, no," etc.

I think shooting SOOC jpg is exactly like shooting slide film. Or most colour print film, for that matter. Liberating.

Jay Maisel asked the question, "Do you like photographs or do you like photographing?" (I paraphrase, apologies.) I think that's relevant to the discussion.
 
To me the detox isn't about digital vs film per se, it's about the fact that when I shoot film I shoot a lot less on a day or a short holiday project than if I have a large memory card on a digital camera, so even though I will use scanned files towards an end result on getting the negs back from the lab the amount of digital work needed is much less, simply because I am forced by expense and the act of having to change rolls every 36 shots to keep the volume down.

And apart from a tiny bit of cropping or straightening there is very little to do with the film scans as the lab does a great job with the developing and, if I say it myself, I can do about as good a job on many occasions with an incident meter on a film camera as the matrix meter that I am happy to trust on a digital camera.

And somehow I enjoy faffing about with loading and unloading the camera and in the process reliving my early days of photography when it was all new and exciting — those days also taught me to live with occasional disappointment in the results: one of life's most valuable lessons! It's fun not to see the results right away either so that when they do arrive they are more of a (generally) pleasant surprise.

But as said I find the reduction of volume to deal with after the event to be one of the biggest positive factors in using film (even alongside digital editiig of scans) from time to time instead of fully digital.
 
Hmm, I can say it's not bothering me because now I can pay it...
But in times I wasn't earning that much, I couldn't afford the prices of today and so I wouldn't be doing this hobby...

23 years ago I paid € 3 for a roll that is now € 15 - for the same genre of roll... I still know the rates as I worked in a photo shop for a while back then.
The price is now 5 times higher.

There are lots of comparisons to make with products and services increasing in price over time.
But imagine you once paid € 2 for a coffee or a beer in a bar, and now they charge you € 10 for the same consumption.
This luckily didn't increase with 5 times over 23 years... My salary didn't increasy with 5 times neither.

Well written, this.

It sums up why I no longer drink in bars or even pubs. Or buy film.

Recently I dropped into my photo retail store in Melbourne for some bulk chemistry I needed. And while there I checked prices on fresh film. Kodak Tri-X was almost AUD $300 for a 100-foot/30 meter roll. Who can afford the extravagance? Photo school students using Dad's credit cards maybe. Not us who inhabit the dreary real world out there.

While there I dropped AUD $100 and a little more on raw chemicals. Which will last me for the rest of my life, as I no longer mix up film and print developers or fixers like I used to in my analog avatar.

What does annoy me about the high cost of film, is (along with many other things) a post I read somewhere a while ago, from someone who was in Japan, and it seems bought Fuji color negative film in one of the Tokyo photo shops for US $4 a roll. I do wish I had bookmarked that post so I could refer to it directly, but alas, I didn't. My bad.

If a high-cost society/cullture like Japan can afford to sell film so cheaply, why can't the rest of the world?
 
There was a time when taking a shot like this required pointing the camera up resulting in converging lines. With large format I would need to set it up first by finding the optimal spot for the tripod, then focus, level, apply movements, move the camera around, focus, repeat repeat and repeat. Meanwhile a small crowd has gathered and the light fading, clouds shifted, that glow on the ship gone. With digital I did all that and made the shot in 5 minutes with built in perspective correction so I didn’t need to estimate for the post processing perspective crop. The original file is in color but I didn’t do anything just desaturated for this preview. I intend to do a proper conversion with color sliders or use a paid 3rd party preset. A little dodge and burn to the foreground to bring out the metal tracks converging on the arch. I don’t think I could have caught the light in time with LF that day. And this was Pier 43 just a skip from Pier 39 the busiest tourist destination in San Francisco.



View attachment 4863738

However technically difficult it was to make, this is a great image.
 
Think you need to reassess your conclusions as you know nothing about me and if I have to explain the current Photographic market and industry then....

I missed this one, and have just now returned late to it, and this thread. A good thread. With many good ideas.

Obviously Leon C missed the sarcasm alert button. Also I didn't draw any conclusions so no reassessment is necessary or required... 😉

If you meant inflation, then okay. Why not say inflation? "State of play" is a sports term in many countries (Canada and Australia to name two). These days it also has a new political connotation as a synonym for "dismal".

Other than this I likely agree with your viewpoints. If you buy a lot of film, and you think it isn't expensive, and feel good about keeping Kodak etc in high corporate profits, well, good one, I and I'm sure everyone else here are happy for you.

Fortunate indeed are those who can afford the high prices of today's niche photography.
 
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To me the detox isn't about digital vs film per se, it's about

I'd like to shine another point of view on this here.
There's aswel a lot of people shooting film, and showing them online (digital), after scanning them.
A lot of analog photography is shown on social media, IG, Flickr,...

Spending time on social media is working on your brain and produces dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, ...
All of them can work compulsive and addictive when using it regularly.
That's the behaviour what we have to detox from. (whether it's analog or digital)
To me personally, it's more about that right now.

And somehow I enjoy faffing about ....
English is not my mother tongue, my native language is Dutch.
My vocabulary is rather general/average.
I particularly loved to read this phrase, didn't know the expression "to faff about" yet and found it funny sounding.
Recently I came across another similar word "a fluffer".
It's a job title for someone doing a very specific job. After looking it up, I'm trying to introduce this word every now and then in random conversations. 🙂
Always eager to learn new words!
 
I missed this one, and have just now returned late to it, and this thread. A good thread. With many good ideas.

Obviously Leon C missed the sarcasm alert button. Also I didn't draw any conclusions so no reassessment is necessary or required... 😉

If you meant inflation, then okay. Why not say inflation? "State of play" is a sports term in many countries (Canada and Australia to name two). These days it also has a new political connotation as a synonym for "dismal".

Other than this I likely agree with your viewpoints. If you buy a lot of film, and you think it isn't expensive, and feel good about keeping Kodak etc in high corporate profits, well, good one, I and I'm sure everyone else here are happy for you.

Fortunate indeed are those who can afford the high prices of today's niche photography.

The forum is filled with many people from different countries with different languages, views and ways of speaking, even in the same tongue and the translation doesn't always work, that's always been the issue with any forum, this place is a bit of fun for me, I don't need anything from it or anyone on it.

I am, by my own admission, a lazy poster and maybe should elaborate more sometimes but....I'm lazy....Whatever people might take from my replies is their way of thinking and not necessarily what I'm saying, nothing I can do about that as I don't really come here to debate or talk about anything photographic as I don't need to.

To finish, I don't buy Kodak film, well, haven't since the 90's, I live 30 mins from Mobberley [Ilford] so like to support my local economy and my local independant lab is 20mins in the other direction.
 
Don't do it. You've got more important things to do than stare at a screen pulling sliders around. (Admittedly, it's fun but I shot a lot of slide film and so editing was simpler: "No, no, no, maybe, no, no, yes!, no, no, no," etc.

I think shooting SOOC jpg is exactly like shooting slide film. Or most colour print film, for that matter. Liberating.

Jay Maisel asked the question, "Do you like photographs or do you like photographing?" (I paraphrase, apologies.) I think that's relevant to the discussion.
Hmm.

If you have your exposure and calibration right, working with raw captures involves very very little "stare at a screen and pull sliders around" ... at least no more so than doing the same thing with JPEG captures. And you have so much more editing room to get the best results with a raw capture it's not even funny.

You do realize that when you sent your color print film off to a photofinisher for processing, it took about $30,000 worth of processing machinery plus an good printer person, to get top notch results out of the film? It's only automated to the point that you, the consumer, don't have to do anything but pay for the services of the people in the shop.

JPEG captures are similar to shooting slide film, or instant print film, in that you have limited latitude, limited editability, and narrow/contrasty dynamic range to work with.

To me, capturing raw exposure data and rendering with image processing software is almost exactly like what I do with negative film and a darkroom ... I can work the full dynamic range of the capture medium and then tailor the rendering to suit what I have in mind, except that there's far more latitude and far more editability than the darkroom provides.

G
 
I'd like to shine another point of view on this here.
There's aswel a lot of people shooting film, and showing them online (digital), after scanning them.
A lot of analog photography is shown on social media, IG, Flickr,...

Spending time on social media is working on your brain and produces dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, ...
All of them can work compulsive and addictive when using it regularly.
That's the behaviour what we have to detox from. (whether it's analog or digital)
To me personally, it's more about that right now.


English is not my mother tongue, my native language is Dutch.
My vocabulary is rather general/average.
I particularly loved to read this phrase, didn't know the expression "to faff about" yet and found it funny sounding.
Recently I came across another similar word "a fluffer".
It's a job title for someone doing a very specific job. After looking it up, I'm trying to introduce this word every now and then in random conversations. 🙂
Always eager to learn new words!


I would caution use of "fluffer." fluffer Meaning & Origin | Slang by Dictionary.com
 
Hmm.

If you have your exposure and calibration right, working with raw captures involves very very little "stare at a screen and pull sliders around" ... at least no more so than doing the same thing with JPEG captures. And you have so much more editing room to get the best results with a raw capture it's not even funny.

You do realize that when you sent your color print film off to a photofinisher for processing, it took about $30,000 worth of processing machinery plus an good printer person, to get top notch results out of the film? It's only automated to the point that you, the consumer, don't have to do anything but pay for the services of the people in the shop.

JPEG captures are similar to shooting slide film, or instant print film, in that you have limited latitude, limited editability, and narrow/contrasty dynamic range to work with.

To me, capturing raw exposure data and rendering with image processing software is almost exactly like what I do with negative film and a darkroom ... I can work the full dynamic range of the capture medium and then tailor the rendering to suit what I have in mind, except that there's far more latitude and far more editability than the darkroom provides.

G

But of course. We are all, as always, constrained by the medium.

And, define "best results." I'm interested in the act of photographing and in what something looks like in the two-dimensional realm after it's been subjected to the constraints of the medium and my intent.

I don't disagree with anything you say except to suggest that my editing process is far more streamlined than you might think. It's a yes/no proposition. The odd "maybe." Just like Kodachrome. Once you have shot a lot of any particular stock, you begin to subconsciously understand its interaction with subject matter. One shapes one's approach. This awareness also applies to the ink set in one's printers and the fact that the gamuts in all of this from sensor to printer don't precisley cover each other.

I shot and processed my first B&W work in 1967, barely into grade school. By the time I was just into double digits I was my father's lab man - he was a war correspondent who did his own photo-j. We used the family darkroom and by that time I could dodge and burn, was pretty good with filtering for contrast, and the odd work print would get used as a final. I switched to Kodachrome in the seventies. We fooled around with in-house colour processing, but...

Shooting RAW and post-processing is exactly like working with monochrome.

"JPEG captures are similar to shooting slide film, or instant print film, in that you have limited latitude, limited editability, and narrow/contrasty dynamic range to work with."

I don't mind -- in fact I embrace -- the constraint of JPGs once I've got the camera set the way I like it. This is key, obviously. I rarely shoot B&W intentionally these days and, yes, I have sat in the waiting rooms of various labs biting my nails wondering how well the temperatures were managed by the night man. I do fully appreciate the equipment and personnel in a good colour lab.

After a long relationship with two major printing houses, I print at home with a colour-managed workflow and large format printers. I'm happier, mostly because of the reduced cost, initial capital cost notwithstanding. I also appreciate the JPG engines that Nikon and Canon have developed and the graceful way they respond to user preferences at the camera and underexposure in good light. I'm very impressed with how well Fuji holds on to highlights. Another advantage of digital is that I bracket a lot less. In difficult light on Kodachrome (or any transparency stock) I'd bracket the hell out of things, especially if they weren't likely to linger. No longer.

Lastly, the "don't do it" post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think boojum got that. I hope. It was never meant to be a RAW vs. JPEG screed. My sincerest apologies if it read like that. This is a fun thread.
 
But of course. We are all, as always, constrained by the medium.

And, define "best results." I'm interested in the act of photographing and in what something looks like in the two-dimensional realm after it's been subjected to the constraints of the medium and my intent.

I don't disagree with anything you say except to suggest that my editing process is far more streamlined than you might think. It's a yes/no proposition. The odd "maybe." Just like Kodachrome. Once you have shot a lot of any particular stock, you begin to subconsciously understand its interaction with subject matter. One shapes one's approach. This awareness also applies to the ink set in one's printers and the fact that the gamuts in all of this from sensor to printer don't precisley cover each other.

I shot and processed my first B&W work in 1967, barely into grade school. By the time I was just into double digits I was my father's lab man - he was a war correspondent who did his own photo-j. We used the family darkroom and by that time I could dodge and burn, was pretty good with filtering for contrast, and the odd work print would get used as a final. I switched to Kodachrome in the seventies. We fooled around with in-house colour processing, but...

Shooting RAW and post-processing is exactly like working with monochrome.

"JPEG captures are similar to shooting slide film, or instant print film, in that you have limited latitude, limited editability, and narrow/contrasty dynamic range to work with."

I don't mind -- in fact I embrace -- the constraint of JPGs once I've got the camera set the way I like it. This is key, obviously. I rarely shoot B&W intentionally these days and, yes, I have sat in the waiting rooms of various labs biting my nails wondering how well the temperatures were managed by the night man. I do fully appreciate the equipment and personnel in a good colour lab.

After a long relationship with two major printing houses, I print at home with a colour-managed workflow and large format printers. I'm happier, mostly because of the reduced cost, initial capital cost notwithstanding. I also appreciate the JPG engines that Nikon and Canon have developed and the graceful way they respond to user preferences at the camera and underexposure in good light. I'm very impressed with how well Fuji holds on to highlights. Another advantage of digital is that I bracket a lot less. In difficult light on Kodachrome (or any transparency stock) I'd bracket the hell out of things, especially if they weren't likely to linger. No longer.

Lastly, the "don't do it" post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think boojum got that. I hope. It was never meant to be a RAW vs. JPEG screed. My sincerest apologies if it read like that. This is a fun thread.

Yes, I got it, no harm, no foul. I can fuss with RAW but at the end-up I have to go to 8-bit JPG to post it, print it or display it so why not cut out that step of RAW editing and trust the engineers who modded the color software and JPG engine and just try to find and frame a good picture? Just like with Agfachrome. ;o)
 
But of course. We are all, as always, constrained by the medium.

And, define "best results." I'm interested in the act of photographing and in what something looks like in the two-dimensional realm after it's been subjected to the constraints of the medium and my intent.
"best results" ... Simple: The photograph matches as best possible what your mind's eye wanted, with consideration of the limitations of the recording medium and equipment in mind. Much easier to do this before you throw 60% of the data away, which is what happens in the transformation from raw data to a JPEG image.

...
I don't disagree with anything you say except to suggest that my editing process is far more streamlined than you might think. It's a yes/no proposition. The odd "maybe." Just like Kodachrome. Once you have shot a lot of any particular stock, you begin to subconsciously understand its interaction with subject matter.
There is nothing different between this in the use of film and film development process and the use of a digital sensor and your processing of the captured data with the image processing tools you use.

One shapes one's approach. This awareness also applies to the ink set in one's printers and the fact that the gamuts in all of this from sensor to printer don't precisley cover each other.

I shot and processed my first B&W work in 1967, barely into grade school. By the time I was just into double digits I was my father's lab man - he was a war correspondent who did his own photo-j. We used the family darkroom and by that time I could dodge and burn, was pretty good with filtering for contrast, and the odd work print would get used as a final. I switched to Kodachrome in the seventies. We fooled around with in-house colour processing, but...

Shooting RAW and post-processing is exactly like working with monochrome.
?? Capturing raw data and using image processing to render your finished photographs is exactly analogous to doing the same with B&W or Color. And lends far more capability than depending upon a given transparency film's behavior and the various machinery used to process it. (I worked for a photofinishing shop for some years: transparency processing machinery requires maintenance and attention to keep it capable of matching reference images for color and density. Most people don't seem to realize how much variation there can be; I hope you do. )

I have you beat on the dates ... I processed my first B&W photographs in my father's darkroom in 1963, age 9. At ages 11-13, I processed my father's x-rays (he was a dental surgeon) and became head of my high school's photo staff. By the time I was 18, I'd been doing free-lance work for the local newspapers and had a little business doing informal wedding events with a local wedding professional.

"JPEG captures are similar to shooting slide film, or instant print film, in that you have limited latitude, limited editability, and narrow/contrasty dynamic range to work with."

I don't mind -- in fact I embrace -- the constraint of JPGs once I've got the camera set the way I like it. This is key, obviously. I rarely shoot B&W intentionally these days and, yes, I have sat in the waiting rooms of various labs biting my nails wondering how well the temperatures were managed by the night man. I do fully appreciate the equipment and personnel in a good colour lab.

After a long relationship with two major printing houses, I print at home with a colour-managed workflow and large format printers. I'm happier, mostly because of the reduced cost, initial capital cost notwithstanding. I also appreciate the JPG engines that Nikon and Canon have developed and the graceful way they respond to user preferences at the camera and underexposure in good light. I'm very impressed with how well Fuji holds on to highlights. Another advantage of digital is that I bracket a lot less. In difficult light on Kodachrome (or any transparency stock) I'd bracket the hell out of things, especially if they weren't likely to linger. No longer.

Lastly, the "don't do it" post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I think boojum got that. I hope. It was never meant to be a RAW vs. JPEG screed. My sincerest apologies if it read like that. This is a fun thread.
I hoped that.

I have run three different photographic businesses in the 2000s out of my home office. All of my printing is done right here in the office ... I capture, render, and print everything up to 13" wide. Because I do it so infrequently, I have not invested in larger print engines ... I send that printing out when it's called for. All the same statements you make about using JPEGs apply to raw as well, you just have much more flexibility and capability to work with.

And enough digression. I have to mix fresh developer and fixer so I can process my latest roll of B&W negatives now... 😉

G
 
The forum is filled with many people from different countries with different languages, views and ways of speaking, even in the same tongue and the translation doesn't always work, that's always been the issue with any forum, this place is a bit of fun for me, I don't need anything from it or anyone on it.

I am, by my own admission, a lazy poster and maybe should elaborate more sometimes but....I'm lazy....Whatever people might take from my replies is their way of thinking and not necessarily what I'm saying, nothing I can do about that as I don't really come here to debate or talk about anything photographic as I don't need to.

To finish, I don't buy Kodak film, well, haven't since the 90's, I live 30 mins from Mobberley [Ilford] so like to support my local economy and my local independant lab is 20mins in the other direction.

Well said. I too enjoy the way these threads weave to and fro, often go sideways into at times odd esoteric byways and eventually back to the main topics. All pleasantly mind-bending and stretching as well as photographically informative. Now and then posters disagree on a few points, but that's the way of human nature, isn't it?

I got out of Kodak about 20 years ago when Ilford perfected XP2. It suited my Flexi-attitude to photography and I moved into it, especially so when devotees of the craft came up with alternative non-C41 ways to process it and methods to vary the results it gives. FP4 had long been my standard film anyway, and as I got older and developed a shake I moved up to HP5. Which I now use when I can get my hands some of it (usually in 120 rolls) at affordable prices. Usually in retail shops in Asia as few photographers there use roll film nowadays.

To return to the original points of this thread, what really is 'detox' anyway? For some it has meant dumping film and moving into digital. For others, the reverse. For a few (me for one), using both when the mood strikes and/or the visual subjects call for different views.

Sadly for me, what has moved me out of analog photography, as much as the increasingly high prices for film and chemistry, is the dismal prospect of having to spend time scanning, which I greatly dislike. During the Covid lockdowns in Australia I spend hours, days, weeks hovering over my wo scanners, running a half century of my best film images from darkroom products to computer visual state. Inevitably I've had to rescan time and again, make infinite small and large adjustments to the basics my scanners produce, and when I eventually come back to checking out my scans on my Apple Mac, realising what a poor job I've done of all this work. Not that it's entirely my fault - a recent job order sent to the best prolab I could afford in Melbourne for a visual presentation I was making to send to publisher clients for stock sales, was returned to me so poorly done that I seriously contemplated either refusing to pay for the order ( of several hundred color slides) or lodging a formal complaint with a government agency about shoddy work. Neither of which I did, but I've vowed will never again send any of my negatives or slides to any lab for scanning.

So yes, in the summing up there is detox and there is Detox. So he writes, on an Apple Mac, with computer music playing on the speakers and our home desktop in the living room set on CNA News. We live in digital times and there is no getting away from this. The important thing to remember is to make the best use of this Century 21 technology, in all aspects of our lives.

Many thanks to Leon C for his most excellent follow-up post. Which has inspired all my verbal rambling...
 
Don't do it. You've got more important things to do than stare at a screen pulling sliders around. (Admittedly, it's fun but I shot a lot of slide film and so editing was simpler: "No, no, no, maybe, no, no, yes!, no, no, no," etc.

I think shooting SOOC jpg is exactly like shooting slide film. Or most colour print film, for that matter. Liberating.

Jay Maisel asked the question, "Do you like photographs or do you like photographing?" (I paraphrase, apologies.) I think that's relevant to the discussion.

I'm totally agree on JPEG1 as alternate detox from dedicated digital cameras as RAW images source.

But for some, if not many, digital JPEG1 is often not working.

I can't stand Nikon, Sony default colors.

Most of FuijNoFilm film emulations are harsh. For my eyes.

The only JPEG1 SOOC capable cameras I have encountered are work given Samsung phone camera and Canon 5DC. Well, Canon RP was okish.

My original M-E 22O sensor was very JPEG1 capable, but after sensor change it is no good even in DNG.

The beauty of analog exposures is in the simplisity of choice.
If I choose Kodak it could be odd, but always fine.
Fujifilm was always waste of money. For me... Sonikosh green-blue mess. Sony's colors of skin are low-fi horror.

So, same film camera, different choices.
Impossible with digitals...

If you own Sony, Nikon as digitals, Kodak film is good choice for releaf on colors.

🙂
 
Most people don't seem to realize how much variation there can be; I hope you do. )
I do. Believe me, I do. You are absolutely correct: the variation available is essentially infinite. Spent a few years with a RAW-based workflow. JPEG on one card and RAW on the other. After a while I found that I was more often using the jpeg. I shoot between 40 and 50 thousand images a year. So now I simply prefer to constrain myself. Think of it as watercolour vs oil painting. Not for everybody, but an approach my particular temperament favours.
 
I do. Believe me, I do. You are absolutely correct: the variation available is essentially infinite. Spent a few years with a RAW-based workflow. JPEG on one card and RAW on the other. After a while I found that I was more often using the jpeg. I shoot between 40 and 50 thousand images a year. So now I simply prefer to constrain myself. Think of it as watercolour vs oil painting. Not for everybody, but an approach my particular temperament favours.
In the end, whatever gets you the results and photographs you want ... well, it's all fine with me, not that I have any voice that you're required to listen to. 😉

I'd have to hunt through my LR to determine how many exposures per year in digital capture I make, never mind in film. But it's mostly irrelevant: I shoot a lot, most every day, and sometimes that means one photograph and sometimes it means a bunch. I don't meter my efforts on quantity, only on whether I get what I want. (Today I made four exposures which netted one photograph. I like the photo... 😉 )

onwards! My developer and fixer are ready, time to process a roll of film out of the IIIc. 😀

G
 
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