cpborello
Established
First, I’d like to thank the RFF community for teaching me about RFs while lurking for the past several months.
By way of background, I knew very little about photography until little more than a year ago. Truth be told, I thought carrying a camera to be an inconvenience. All that changed about 18 months ago, when my daughter was born. Long story short, I ended up with a DSLR (Canon Digital Rebel XT) and a handful of lenses -- and was excited about photographing not just my daughter, but life in general. However, I was less than enamored with the B&W conversion process and loathe spending hours in front of the computer with editing software. I probably should have just bought an autofocus film SLR to use with my existing lenses, but I like low light photography and was frustrated with the low light focus hunt of the cameras within my budget. Therefore, I decided upon a manual focus body with a good viewfinder.
Fast forward, I happened upon RFF, bought a 40mm M-rokkor (thanks Flyfisher Tom!), and a Leica CL. I like the CL and its metering. A lot. So much that my DSLR has seen much less use over the past several months. But I can’t help but think that I might be better off with an M5 or M6, as what I sought in the first place was the ability to focus large aperture lenses in low light with the best viewfinder that I can afford (I started with the CL, as I was not sure I would like the RF style, and I figured I could sell it without much of a loss as compared to buying a new R3M or the like).
I am leaning towards the M5/M6 because I don’t think I am ready for meterless shooting , and having to bring along a separate meter might cause me to pause before grabbing the camera while heading out the door. And, my budget approx $1,000.
If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Am I fooling myself into believing there will be marked improvement over the CL? Any pros/cons of the M5 vs M6? Should I be thinking about another alternative?
Thanks in advance for the guidance,
Chris
By way of background, I knew very little about photography until little more than a year ago. Truth be told, I thought carrying a camera to be an inconvenience. All that changed about 18 months ago, when my daughter was born. Long story short, I ended up with a DSLR (Canon Digital Rebel XT) and a handful of lenses -- and was excited about photographing not just my daughter, but life in general. However, I was less than enamored with the B&W conversion process and loathe spending hours in front of the computer with editing software. I probably should have just bought an autofocus film SLR to use with my existing lenses, but I like low light photography and was frustrated with the low light focus hunt of the cameras within my budget. Therefore, I decided upon a manual focus body with a good viewfinder.
Fast forward, I happened upon RFF, bought a 40mm M-rokkor (thanks Flyfisher Tom!), and a Leica CL. I like the CL and its metering. A lot. So much that my DSLR has seen much less use over the past several months. But I can’t help but think that I might be better off with an M5 or M6, as what I sought in the first place was the ability to focus large aperture lenses in low light with the best viewfinder that I can afford (I started with the CL, as I was not sure I would like the RF style, and I figured I could sell it without much of a loss as compared to buying a new R3M or the like).
I am leaning towards the M5/M6 because I don’t think I am ready for meterless shooting , and having to bring along a separate meter might cause me to pause before grabbing the camera while heading out the door. And, my budget approx $1,000.
If you were in my shoes, what would you do? Am I fooling myself into believing there will be marked improvement over the CL? Any pros/cons of the M5 vs M6? Should I be thinking about another alternative?
Thanks in advance for the guidance,
Chris
back alley
IMAGES
there are always alternatives...
if you want to stay with leica then the m6 would be my choice as it is newer than the m5, has a meter and will focus those fast lenses you want.
the m5 will also do those things but it's older and a touch bigger though still a good and well loved camera by many.
there are a bunch of bessa's that would do the same, but with shorter base lengths and so a bit trickier focusing of fast glass, but still doable for the most part.
new at similar cost as the m6 would be a zeiss ikon (my personal choice), it also would do all you want and with the bonus of the brightest and biggest viewfinder out there.
not an easy choice...
welcome to forum, btw.
joe
if you want to stay with leica then the m6 would be my choice as it is newer than the m5, has a meter and will focus those fast lenses you want.
the m5 will also do those things but it's older and a touch bigger though still a good and well loved camera by many.
there are a bunch of bessa's that would do the same, but with shorter base lengths and so a bit trickier focusing of fast glass, but still doable for the most part.
new at similar cost as the m6 would be a zeiss ikon (my personal choice), it also would do all you want and with the bonus of the brightest and biggest viewfinder out there.
not an easy choice...
welcome to forum, btw.
joe
Huck Finn
Well-known
I wouldn't buy either. I would (and did) opt for a Zeiss Ikon. Not only will you get the longer base line, but you'll get a better viewfinder as well. There's a black demo in excellent condition with a 1-year warranty available for $997 at www.popflach.com. Call Tony Rose at Popflash, tell him you're an RFF member, & you'll get free shipping.
Best of luck with your decision.
Best of luck with your decision.
S
Simon Larbalestier
Guest
M6 classic with a CLA.
suckerpunch
*$&!
i have both a m6 and a cl, and love them both. the cl is not as quiet and smooth as the m6, but it is so so small that it's a great backup/color film camera.if i had to pick one over the other, it would be the m6. much brighter viewfinder , focusing area is brighter and contrasty-er, and of course quieter.
BUT, the shutter speed dial on the cl is much easier to use with your eye to the camera than the m6, and the size/weight has made me consider getting rid of the m6 and going with 2 cl's. just a thought though...
BUT, the shutter speed dial on the cl is much easier to use with your eye to the camera than the m6, and the size/weight has made me consider getting rid of the m6 and going with 2 cl's. just a thought though...
borismach
Established
If I were you, I would go on using the CL and buy neither of them. You would be joyful in exploring different lenses instead. Until you find yourself limited by CL, then consider another Leica M.
If however you push me to pick one, I will vote for M6 classic.
Cheers.
bm
If however you push me to pick one, I will vote for M6 classic.
Cheers.
bm
ERV
Well-known
I have an M5 and and M6 and like them both for different reasons.
The M5 has a better functional layout that allows you to change and see shutter speeds in the viewfinder while looking through it. (search for M5 on RFF and you'll find a treasure trove of praisers and detractors. )
I also think the analogue meter in the M5 is much more intuitive than the triangular diodes of the M6. On the other hand, the M6 is a standard M size and has 28mm frame lines, which is good if you're thinking about a 28mm lens.
Both are extremely well made and rugged. I've had a CL as well and although I like the small size, I thought it wasn't as well made as a standard M body.
The Zeiss Ikon is also an interesting option particularly because of the aperture priority, which would come in handy. All three will work well with your 40mm rokkor. I have a 40 Cron and use it on both. I've also owned non-metered M bodies and although I like them, I found that having an onboard meter to be a better fit for me. One less thing to think about.
So, my personal suggestion? Any of the three will do, however if I had to choose based on using both, I would do M5, M6, ZI. Good Luck!
The M5 has a better functional layout that allows you to change and see shutter speeds in the viewfinder while looking through it. (search for M5 on RFF and you'll find a treasure trove of praisers and detractors. )
I also think the analogue meter in the M5 is much more intuitive than the triangular diodes of the M6. On the other hand, the M6 is a standard M size and has 28mm frame lines, which is good if you're thinking about a 28mm lens.
Both are extremely well made and rugged. I've had a CL as well and although I like the small size, I thought it wasn't as well made as a standard M body.
The Zeiss Ikon is also an interesting option particularly because of the aperture priority, which would come in handy. All three will work well with your 40mm rokkor. I have a 40 Cron and use it on both. I've also owned non-metered M bodies and although I like them, I found that having an onboard meter to be a better fit for me. One less thing to think about.
So, my personal suggestion? Any of the three will do, however if I had to choose based on using both, I would do M5, M6, ZI. Good Luck!
venchka
Veteran
What ERV said
What ERV said
I was in your shoes, kinda, less than a year ago. I had been through bushels and even an entire VW Beetle full of gear from 4x5 to a Canon IVS2 rangefinder. I had always wanted a Leica. In my search I rediscovered the long forgotten M5. I remember the original ads.
Like you said, fast forward. I have 2 M5s now. I love them. Don't even worry about the lack of 28mm framelines. I bought a 28mm lens and the entire viewfinder works very well for the 28mm lens. The second M5 I bought has the M6 framelines. This is good & bad news. Good news becasue now I have both 28 & 75 framelines to go with matching lenses. Bad news because the viewfinder flares a little. The original M5 viewfinder flares less or not at all.
So, while I still have a bushel of SLR and MF AND Canon RF stuff, I have my Leicas. I'm happy.
You want aperture priority metering? M5 does it. You want shutter priority mettering? M5 does it. You want a continuously variable shutter? M5 does it. You want the best film loading system in an M body? You want a camera built the old Wetzlar way? Yup, M5 again.
However, the advice to keep the CL and use it is good too. We all get too hung up on the gear. Just take pictures! You'll know when and if you really NEED an M5.
What ERV said
I was in your shoes, kinda, less than a year ago. I had been through bushels and even an entire VW Beetle full of gear from 4x5 to a Canon IVS2 rangefinder. I had always wanted a Leica. In my search I rediscovered the long forgotten M5. I remember the original ads.
Like you said, fast forward. I have 2 M5s now. I love them. Don't even worry about the lack of 28mm framelines. I bought a 28mm lens and the entire viewfinder works very well for the 28mm lens. The second M5 I bought has the M6 framelines. This is good & bad news. Good news becasue now I have both 28 & 75 framelines to go with matching lenses. Bad news because the viewfinder flares a little. The original M5 viewfinder flares less or not at all.
So, while I still have a bushel of SLR and MF AND Canon RF stuff, I have my Leicas. I'm happy.
You want aperture priority metering? M5 does it. You want shutter priority mettering? M5 does it. You want a continuously variable shutter? M5 does it. You want the best film loading system in an M body?
You want a camera built the old Wetzlar way? Yup, M5 again.However, the advice to keep the CL and use it is good too. We all get too hung up on the gear. Just take pictures! You'll know when and if you really NEED an M5.
cpborello
Established
Thanks for the help all. Now I'm on the proverbial fence between doing nothing, or looking for an M5, M6 or ZI. Although I must say that the arguments for the M5 are compelling, as I am accustomed to changing the shutter speed with the camera up to my eye, and am an analog kind of guy.
venchka
Veteran
Be patient
Be patient
Agreed. I find a moving needle (in a hand meter or a camera viewfinder) much faster and easier to average in my head when scanning a scene for proper exposure. My only complaint about the M5 is that it doesn't display f-stop numbers like the Canon.
I have owned & used a Canon EF since 1975. I don't know which came first, the M5 or the EF. When I picked up my first M5 last year, everything felt exactly right. That's when I realized that the Canon EF and M5 shutter speed dial, shutter release and film advance were nearly identical. I think it's the best solution that I have ever used. I use both cameras at the same time. My hands and fingers and brain are very comfortable with either.
Be patient
cpborello said:
Agreed. I find a moving needle (in a hand meter or a camera viewfinder) much faster and easier to average in my head when scanning a scene for proper exposure. My only complaint about the M5 is that it doesn't display f-stop numbers like the Canon.
I have owned & used a Canon EF since 1975. I don't know which came first, the M5 or the EF. When I picked up my first M5 last year, everything felt exactly right. That's when I realized that the Canon EF and M5 shutter speed dial, shutter release and film advance were nearly identical. I think it's the best solution that I have ever used. I use both cameras at the same time. My hands and fingers and brain are very comfortable with either.
TEZillman
Well-known
Chris,
Just as a suggestion, take a few minutes to read the Cameraquest page about the CL if you've never done so. It's at: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm This page reminded me why I bought the CL in the first place even though I already had a M7.
I was questioning why I needed to have two Leica cameras and had already posted the CL here on RRF for sale. The main point that struck me was that I can and do slip the CL with the 40mm into a jacket pocket and slip the 90mm C into the other and go. With the M7, I'm carrying a camera around my neck or over my shoulder and am probably carrying a camera bag as well, which isn't something that I want to do all the time. So I decided to keep the CL. It's the perfect go anywhere camera for me.
Just as a suggestion, take a few minutes to read the Cameraquest page about the CL if you've never done so. It's at: http://www.cameraquest.com/leicacl.htm This page reminded me why I bought the CL in the first place even though I already had a M7.
I was questioning why I needed to have two Leica cameras and had already posted the CL here on RRF for sale. The main point that struck me was that I can and do slip the CL with the 40mm into a jacket pocket and slip the 90mm C into the other and go. With the M7, I'm carrying a camera around my neck or over my shoulder and am probably carrying a camera bag as well, which isn't something that I want to do all the time. So I decided to keep the CL. It's the perfect go anywhere camera for me.
vrgard
Well-known
Thanks, Tom, for reminding us about Cameraquest's great write-up about the CL. I keep thinking that playing with an old Barnack Leica would be fun and make a good pocket camera. Reading Cameraquest's write-up of the CL reminds me that by having the CL, I already have a great pocket camera that also happens to be wonderfully compatible with all my M mount lenses.
-Randy
-Randy
cpborello
Established
Thanks Tom. I have no plan to get rid of the CL for just that reason. The M5/M6/ZI would be primarily an indoor camera for low-light. Outdoors and spur-of-the-moment , I would almost certainly use the CL (in fact, it is in my briefcase as we speak). And, in the wintertime, the CL fits in my parka.
venchka
Veteran
I never said that you had to make an either/or decision. Think about it. The M5 & CL are contemporaries. They are complimentary not exclusive. Too bad that when they were new folks bought the CL instead of the M5.
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Steve Bellayr
Veteran
As my son grew up I used a host of different cameras and lenses. When a child is young there is no problem with a 50mm lens but as they grow and interact sometimes you can't or don't want to get close and a longer lens is needed. (One such time was when my son took swimming lessons...no way you will take the M with a 50mm in the pool.) Also, if you are not comfortable without a meter and you are rusing to take photos then you will inevitably need one. In your position I would get the M6. It has a meter and framelines which will be helpful when you buy a longer lens. (85mm to 135mm are good portrait lenses and you shuld have one of those in your repertoire.) Keep the CL. You never know at which major holiday your camera will go down.
cpborello
Established
I want to thank you all for the help I received in this thread. I decided on an M5, which I purchased from another RFF member last week -- a real nice guy who met me at my job on a Saturday for the exchange (jamriman). I have not developed any film with it yet, but ergonomically it is exactly what I was after -- I really like the analog meter and ability to easily change the shutter speed in a way similar to the CL. I think the two go perfectly together.
See post #343 in the link below.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=518533#post518533
See post #343 in the link below.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=518533#post518533