A reality check with the Leica M8

[Ben Z]

So where did those camera's go, Ben? Your dealer must have done something with them. Even if he sent them back to Solms, surely you are not suggesting that there is a little shed in the back yard of the factory, full of abandodned M8's? .

Um, my dealer only had 27 cameras to send back and I presume they will be refurbished. It was the hundred or more pre-orders that got cancelled that is the worrysome thing for the dealer(s) and Leica. However there may be a little shed in the back of the factory full of M8s waiting to be refurbished

BTW, I bought a 12mm Voitlander and a Visoflex focus mount for my 135 T-E specifically in anticipation of the M8, and I had the cash earmarked. While I don't have the stomach to be an unpaid beta-tester I had every intention of getting a second-run M8 by spring.

 

[jaapv]

BTW, I bought a 12mm Voitlander and a Visoflex focus mount for my 135 T-E specifically in anticipation of the M8, and I had the cash earmarked. While I don't have the stomach to be an unpaid beta-tester I had every intention of getting a second-run M8 by spring.

Which I'm sure you happily will....

 

[jaapv]

I think Leica will/is harming itself and will soon become part of a larger organization, not by personal choice I might add,

It will become something like Contax is/was.... They are traveling a very risky path at the moment and their independence is currently at stake..... they are clearly gambling with all their power they have left.....

.....

Not necessarily a bad thing- Aston Martin and Volvo for instance are doing quite nicely under the Ford umbrella, much better than the parent company, and I don't think the RR-Volkswagen or BMW-Bentley marriages are unhappy.

 

[rvaubel]

BTW, I bought a 12mm Voitlander and a Visoflex focus mount for my 135 T-E specifically in anticipation of the M8, and I had the cash earmarked. While I don't have the stomach to be an unpaid beta-tester I had every intention of getting a second-run M8 by spring.

Ben

But by buying the 12mm and the visoflex your going to be kinda a beta tester anyway. My point is, eventually you are going to bit the bullet and take the camera. Then, and only then will you start having fun.

I'm in the same boat. The same thing happened to me with the RD1. But I'm glad I took the RD1, warts and all because I already got my money's worth . The question becomes when do you become a beta tester, not if

Rex

 

[Ben Z]

Ben

But by buying the 12mm and the visoflex your going to be kinda a beta tester anyway. My point is, eventually you are going to bit the bullet and take the camera. Then, and only then will you start having fun.

I'm in the same boat. The same thing happened to me with the RD1. But I'm glad I took the RD1, warts and all because I already got my money's worth . The question becomes when do you become a beta tester, not if

Rex

I will not pay $4800 for an M8 and then have to buy another $1000 in filters, even if they solve all the other problems. So until they replace the sensor with a stronger IR filter, or the price of the camera drops at least $1000, I'm out of the M8 game indefinitely. The RD-1 is another story. I've got my eyes peeled for a refurb. For $1400 or so, and no pressing need for IR filters, I might just be willing to gamble on the thing lasting me a year with no more than me having to adjust the rangefinder. It'll pay for itself in a year of shooting with film and developing savings. Meantime there's still plenty of film to be had, and I do have a 20D that makes great images with no sweat. Something millions of people agree with despite the handful of Leica and Nikon guys who think Canon's images are soft. I use the Fred Miranda sharpening plugin and the prints are tack sharp.

 

[Magnus]

Not necessarily a bad thing- Aston Martin and Volvo for instance are doing quite nicely under the Ford umbrella, much better than the parent company, and I don't think the RR-Volkswagen or BMW-Bentley marriages are unhappy.

I agree with you there, doesn't have to be a bad thing. Camera segment is different though and companies are looking for a profit...
Look what happened to contax, teaming up didn't really maintain there images, let alone improve it.

anyway it would a pity if leica would loose it's independent structure, but the chances of keeping it seems rather slim.

 

[jaapv]

I will not pay $4800 for an M8 and then have to buy another $1000 in filters, even if they solve all the other problems. So until they replace the sensor with a stronger IR filter, or the price of the camera drops at least $1000, I'm out of the M8 game indefinitely. The RD-1 is another story. I've got my eyes peeled for a refurb. For $1400 or so, and no pressing need for IR filters, I might just be willing to gamble on the thing lasting me a year with no more than me having to adjust the rangefinder. It'll pay for itself in a year of shooting with film and developing savings. Meantime there's still plenty of film to be had, and I do have a 20D that makes great images with no sweat. Something millions of people agree with despite the handful of Leica and Nikon guys who think Canon's images are soft. I use the Fred Miranda sharpening plugin and the prints are tack sharp.

But the Visoflex won't fit the RD1... (unless you cobble up the mount to have it upside down)

 

[Toby]

Not necessarily a bad thing- Aston Martin and Volvo for instance are doing quite nicely under the Ford umbrella, much better than the parent company, and I don't think the RR-Volkswagen or BMW-Bentley marriages are unhappy.

Yes but what about Rover - BMW or Daimler Chrysler ? Or *gulp* British Leyland

 

[jaapv]

Rover folded after BMW sold it to the (mis)management, maybe bailed out would be a better word. And BLMC- well, I do feel industrial action had a hand in that. I bought a Mini 1100 in the worst days. The engine blew after 27000 km's. When we opened it up, it had four different pistons: flat, hollow, domed and with a cam. And the tappet followers turned out to be old pre-war stock....

 

[nrb]

Despite all its ills and ailments, I'm sure Leica M8 is a great camera, much more reliable and durable than the RD-1.
Who cares about its crop factor? And damn its cost for it will soon be forgotten in view of the outstanding and unequalled quality of the images it makes.
My 2 cents of the dollar...

 

[Plasmat]

The first models of almost any advanced or new hi-tech product almost always have some bugs. It comes with the territory. I use equipment in my work MUCH more expensive than the M8, and I don't get upset. I work around the problems and communicate with the manufacturer, and things get fixed.

But some of these products will do things that could not have been done for love or money 10 or 20 years ago....medical imaging, prepress production machines, you name it. If you wanted digital images and Photoshop in 1990, good luck, $10,000,000 couldn't have bought you anything usable.

The people going crazy on these forums are big babies and nuts. They live to post on forums, not use the equipment. The biggest nuts don't even own an M8.

I think they'd be satisfied if they managed to put Leica out of the digital camera business. That would be a huge shame because of a few raving internet psychotics. If Leica goes out of the digital M business, where will you all be?

The M8 is a new machine capable of astonishing imagery which allows one to use lenses made 60 years ago and put them back into service. It's a fantastic photographer's tool.

The correct response to the "flaws" would be a measured discussion of them, which would help Leica correct them in future firmware and hardware fixes. NOT raving, acting as though they were "betrayed" and vowing to never buy the camera they can't afford anyway. Sour grapes.

The camera is far from a fiasco, it's a marvel.

The problem with the internet is that every looney tune who mutters to himself can now project his voice in everyone's face, giving them false validity.

 

[Magnus]

"The camera is far from a fiasco, it's a marvel."

The camera might be a marvel, theoretically that is, in practice it does not live up to it's expectations. Being a die hard leica fanatic you might argue the counter fact until turning blue in the face, but a marvel it is not!

The camera itself is certainly not a fiasco either, the general idea is quite brilliant, it perhaps needed some more research before introducing on the market. No, the fiasco is what it might do to Leica as a company, they are financially not a strong one and might not be able to carry all the cost and expenses needed to be able to turn the camera into a qualitative good product, this is where the Fiasco might turn....

And I actually do own one.

"The problem with the internet is that every looney tune who mutters to himself can now project his voice in everyone's face, giving them false validity."

or providing everyone else with their findings.... in my eyes perfectly valid and one of the great contributions the internet has made on day to day life.

You might not wish to hear negative things about a product you have recently purchased (you do own one do you?) this is a perfect natural reaction, but calling other that do "loony tunes, big babies and nuts" for providing the world with there opinions ... well I would say look into a mirror deeply and honestly, and judging by the content of your post don't stop looking after 10 seconds or so ......

 

[Plasmat]

I am not talking about presenting problems and rationally discussing them, I'm talking about the hysterical manner in which forum posters work themselves up into a lather about technical issues.

I'm not a Leica nut or fanatic. I like Leica cameras. I like many other cameras. I have been collecting and using cameras since I was a teenager (I'm over 50 now). I'm both a "gearhead" and a photographer.

Right now, I own one M8 and three R-D1's. I've had many problems with my R-D1's which I've managed to deal with. The pleasure I've had using them with my lens collection far outweighs the negatives.

I like the M8, and I'm not overly worried about the "flaws". I barely notice them, and I'm not going to shoot at ISO 1600 into light bulbs until I find a vertical line or a reflection. My camera has never locked up. If it starts doing so, I'm sure Leica will take care of the problem.

I'm not crazy about the smooth "vulcanite" or the spongy shutter release feel. I think these things will probably be addressed in the future and may be indicative of too many cooks at the helm.

 

[DaveSee]

I will not pay $4800 for an M8 and then have to buy another $1000 in filters, even if they solve all the other problems. So until they replace the sensor with a stronger IR filter, or the price of the camera drops at least $1000, I'm out of the M8 game indefinitely. The RD-1 is another story. I've got my eyes peeled for a refurb. For $1400 or so, and no pressing need for IR filters, I might just be willing to gamble on the thing lasting me a year with no more than me having to adjust the rangefinder. It'll pay for itself in a year of shooting with film and developing savings. Meantime there's still plenty of film to be had, and I do have a 20D that makes great images with no sweat. Something millions of people agree with despite the handful of Leica and Nikon guys who think Canon's images are soft. I use the Fred Miranda sharpening plugin and the prints are tack sharp.

Sounds more and more that you will not ever own the Leica, but an R-D1.
And it seems you're satisfied with the "tack sharp" of a post-processed image.

So, keep spending your money on post-processing software and hardware after making the best of a lesser camera Still no free lunch any way you look at it!

rgds,
Dave

 

[Ash]

I thought a Leica was meant to be a constant companion? so here's a pun for ya, in response to all the negative threads...
Is the Leica M8 really 'like-a mate'?

 

[Ben Z]

And it seems you're satisfied with the "tack sharp" of a post-processed image.

So, keep spending your money on post-processing software and hardware after making the best of a lesser camera

Yeah, I've heard that attempt at a put-down before and it might bother me if it weren't for the millions of professionals out there making money with those "lesser" cameras while the handful of guys with M8s are packing theirs up to send back to Solms or surfing the internet trying to scrounge up IR filters and come up with C1 profiles that make something usable from the WB...or does that not count as post-processing? BTW I've seen quite a few M8 shots where there was noticeable moire (though not discussed because the thread subject was about some other defect), the result of the non-AA filter. I understand that would require post-processing too, more difficult and in the end more degrading to the image quality than the sharpening necessary with some AA filtering. And let's don't mention what noise-reduction software is needed and will do to those great M8 images if one tries to equilibrate them to the high-ISO performance of one of those "lesser" cameras

There definitely is no free lunch, that's for sure. But if I'm going to get the runs from it one way or the other I'd rather have a cheap lunch and save my money for dinner

 

[MP Guy]

Ben,

These are are the exact same type of posts I have be bitching about.

 

[Ben Z]

Jorge you have a right to censor and whitewash as much as you like on your own forum, but it isn't going to change the disastrous outcome for Leica due to ignoring guys like me: guys who had cash in hand and were ready and willing to buy, but who are turned off by the--sorry I can't think of a better word than idiotic--premise that it's perfectly acceptible to have to put some kind of filter in front of every lens just so the camera can see black as black. Making pretend that a large enough number of people are accepting this that Leica's home free, will not make it happen. There is a huge difference between a guy saying the M8 is a ripoff and 20D the most worth it --that's trolling and bashing--and someone saying "I'd rather not be using a 20D, all Leica has to do to get me to dropkick the 20D into Lake Michigan and fork over the five grand for an M8 is get rid of that preposterous filter kludge." And I'm a more loyal Leica guy than most of the guys I know off-line, because I'm holding on to the 20D and holding out for an M8-N (for No filters). A bunch of those same guys have just bought 5Ds on rebate and plan to sell most or all of their Leica stuff. A few happy guys resigned to the IR filters ain't going to keep Leica in business. I really don't want to be saying "I told you so" in a year, I want to see Leica survive. That's the difference between me and a basher.

 

[Plasmat]

This type of camera is just not for you. Stick to the Canons.

Every new machine has teething pains. Look at what people went through with the Nikon D1 and other early DSLR's.

 

[jaapv]

it's perfectly acceptible to have to put some kind of filter in front of every lens just so the camera can see black as black

In front of the lens or in front of the sensor - to me: I prefer having the choice of using the filter- any filter- as needed. Removing it from the lens is slightly easier than disassembling the camera to remove from the sensor - and vica versa....