karlori
Digital Refugee
Greetings !
I have been a long time lurker, not because i had a RF camera or anything but the amount of information i can use in everyday photography. I find using film and RF cameras a purist style these days. So after being with digital throughout my hobby and getting to try medium format some time ago, I think that i am at a point where i am seriously considering a RF system.
(had a Zorky 4 but that ended in tears)
So i ask you dear members if you could afford a bit of your time and point me in the right direction. I am looking at around 2500$ of spare money to spend on my first RF/Leica kit.
(btw i once held a M6 with i think a 50mm lens ? - from that moment on i was photography hooked
- so if i get a Leica it is like a dream come true !)
I have been a long time lurker, not because i had a RF camera or anything but the amount of information i can use in everyday photography. I find using film and RF cameras a purist style these days. So after being with digital throughout my hobby and getting to try medium format some time ago, I think that i am at a point where i am seriously considering a RF system.
(had a Zorky 4 but that ended in tears)
So i ask you dear members if you could afford a bit of your time and point me in the right direction. I am looking at around 2500$ of spare money to spend on my first RF/Leica kit.
(btw i once held a M6 with i think a 50mm lens ? - from that moment on i was photography hooked
- so if i get a Leica it is like a dream come true !)
Austerby
Well-known
You won't go wrong with a Leica M2 (without meter) or M6 (with meter) or a Zeiss Ikon. Pair one of those up with a 35mm or 50mm from Leica, Zeiss or Voigtlander (there are others) and you'll be made.
If you can run to it an M7 is worth looking for if the right price - an M7 with a 50mm Summicron recently went for £1500 on eBay which is in your budget, but that was unusually cheap.
If you can run to it an M7 is worth looking for if the right price - an M7 with a 50mm Summicron recently went for £1500 on eBay which is in your budget, but that was unusually cheap.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
In camera meter or not?
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Greetings !
I have been a long time lurker, not because i had a RF camera or anything but the amount of information i can use in everyday photography. I find using film and RF cameras a purist style these days. So after being with digital throughout my hobby and getting to try medium format some time ago, I think that i am at a point where i am seriously considering a RF system.
(had a Zorky 4 but that ended in tears)
So i ask you dear members if you could afford a bit of your time and point me in the right direction. I am looking at around 2500$ of spare money to spend on my first RF/Leica kit.
(btw i once held a M6 with i think a 50mm lens ? - from that moment on i was photography hooked
If metered, the answer is easy as there's only one: M6.
For non metered Leica bodies there are several options... I'd pick an M2 for its feel and clean framelines... And 35 & 90 Summicrons... A starter kit "for life"...
Cheers,
Juan
kxl
Social Documentary
There's a nice M4-P in the rff classifieds right now for $999. Nice price for a body that looks to be in pristine condition. Wrt a lens, make a prioritized list of what you want, then wait for one to come up in the classifieds here.
Personally, I would get a ZI body with one of the following ZM lenses (50mm Planar, 50mm Sonnar, 35/2.0), or a CV 35/1.2.
If you want something new, click on the popfllash.photo ad, and search for a ZEISS body. A ZI body (NOT the SW) and a ZM lens bundle is within your budget.
Personally, I would get a ZI body with one of the following ZM lenses (50mm Planar, 50mm Sonnar, 35/2.0), or a CV 35/1.2.
If you want something new, click on the popfllash.photo ad, and search for a ZEISS body. A ZI body (NOT the SW) and a ZM lens bundle is within your budget.
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
If I were in your position, with 2500$ to spare, I have the choice between an ok body and an amazing lens or vice versa. I strongly recommend the M6, you can find one for about 1k, that leaves you with a good sum to spend on a nice 50 cron or maybe even a 35 lux....
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
$2500 gives you a lot of choices. Think first about what you want to shoot. Black/white, color,color slides?
As you are posting on the M-forum, I suspect that you want the "Leica" experience - at least to start with.
If you are mainly going to shoot bl/w - go for a non-metered camera, a M2/M4/M4P and a small "pack" of lenses. A 35mm is part of the basic kit, a 50 for a slightly longer view and the 90 as a portrait and long lens. Some careful shopping should get you all of this with money to spare. Some of the new lenses from Cosina/Zeiss/Konica are superior to older Leica lenses (in spite of the bias here). A 35f1.4 Nokton, coupled with a 50f2 Planar and either a Elmarit 90f2.8 or the Voigtlander Apo-Lanthar 90f3.5 would cost about what a new 50f2 Summicron (a 60 year old design and it shows).
Color negative film can be handled with same kit. Slide film might need a bit more consistency between lenses. Look at the Zeiss ZM series, about as good as it gets - though you might have to forego the 90mm here and spring for a metered camera (M6/M6TTL).
Initially buy the body and 1 lens and get used to the "rangefinder" way, later you can add lenses and by that time you will know if you want wider or longer lenses to complement your kit.
I you go meter less camera, pick up a small, handheld meter (Gossen, Seconic) and stick to one film. You will quickly figure out what works lightwise and after 20-25 rolls, the meter is left in the pocket.
The main difference between using rangefinders versus SLR's - is the size. A small lightweight "kit" with one or two lenses is better than all the big stuff. You can wander around for a whole day with a body on the shoulder, one lens (usually a 35) and the 2nd lens in a pocket (50/90), 1/2 dozen rolls in your pocket. You will quickly learn how to gauge a scene, light, exposure, timing - and most likely have a better "hit" rate than with a hulking SLR and some wonder zoom ( which would be a compromise between lens performance, size and price anyway).
Comfort is paramount to successful photography. Good shoes, a good jacket and a camera that fits your hand is more important than all the Aspeherical, multicoated wonders out there.
I have a lot of cameras/lenses etc - but truthfully, I could survive with a M2 and a 35. I am just happy I don't have to. Even going from mega-buck lenses to a mundane, $200-250 lens rarely makes that much difference to the final image.
Ideally, you should pester your fellow shooters with access to rangefinders for a "loaner" for a week or so and try it. $ 2500 spent on something you find out you cant stand - is money badly spent.
As you are posting on the M-forum, I suspect that you want the "Leica" experience - at least to start with.
If you are mainly going to shoot bl/w - go for a non-metered camera, a M2/M4/M4P and a small "pack" of lenses. A 35mm is part of the basic kit, a 50 for a slightly longer view and the 90 as a portrait and long lens. Some careful shopping should get you all of this with money to spare. Some of the new lenses from Cosina/Zeiss/Konica are superior to older Leica lenses (in spite of the bias here). A 35f1.4 Nokton, coupled with a 50f2 Planar and either a Elmarit 90f2.8 or the Voigtlander Apo-Lanthar 90f3.5 would cost about what a new 50f2 Summicron (a 60 year old design and it shows).
Color negative film can be handled with same kit. Slide film might need a bit more consistency between lenses. Look at the Zeiss ZM series, about as good as it gets - though you might have to forego the 90mm here and spring for a metered camera (M6/M6TTL).
Initially buy the body and 1 lens and get used to the "rangefinder" way, later you can add lenses and by that time you will know if you want wider or longer lenses to complement your kit.
I you go meter less camera, pick up a small, handheld meter (Gossen, Seconic) and stick to one film. You will quickly figure out what works lightwise and after 20-25 rolls, the meter is left in the pocket.
The main difference between using rangefinders versus SLR's - is the size. A small lightweight "kit" with one or two lenses is better than all the big stuff. You can wander around for a whole day with a body on the shoulder, one lens (usually a 35) and the 2nd lens in a pocket (50/90), 1/2 dozen rolls in your pocket. You will quickly learn how to gauge a scene, light, exposure, timing - and most likely have a better "hit" rate than with a hulking SLR and some wonder zoom ( which would be a compromise between lens performance, size and price anyway).
Comfort is paramount to successful photography. Good shoes, a good jacket and a camera that fits your hand is more important than all the Aspeherical, multicoated wonders out there.
I have a lot of cameras/lenses etc - but truthfully, I could survive with a M2 and a 35. I am just happy I don't have to. Even going from mega-buck lenses to a mundane, $200-250 lens rarely makes that much difference to the final image.
Ideally, you should pester your fellow shooters with access to rangefinders for a "loaner" for a week or so and try it. $ 2500 spent on something you find out you cant stand - is money badly spent.
robklurfield
eclipse
I read many smart, insightful statements on RFF, but this one above from Tom A is absolutely one of the best ideas you'll ever read here.
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
My every day fall back is a M6ttl and 50 'cron rigid. That, and a roll of arista 400, and I am a happy camper
gb hill
Veteran
If you are going to shoot b&w then I would use some of that money on equipment needed to develop your own film & a scanner. Developing your own film is easy & fun!
maddoc
... likes film again.
That is indeed paramount to successful photography, second is practise.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Welcome Karlori. What sort of pictures do you want to shoot with an RF? What do you shoot with now? Sorry to hear about your trip down FSU lane, mine ended similarly with a FED and two Kievs.
There are so many ways to go, perhaps an M8.2, perhaps a beautiful M2 or M4 and lots of film and scanning. A lot of ways to do depending upon what you want to shoot.
Again welcome to one of the best places on the net to learn, share, question, and try.
B2 (;->
There are so many ways to go, perhaps an M8.2, perhaps a beautiful M2 or M4 and lots of film and scanning. A lot of ways to do depending upon what you want to shoot.
Again welcome to one of the best places on the net to learn, share, question, and try.
B2 (;->
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
As Rob and others pointed, Tom Abrahamsson's posts are a true pleasure... So complete, so precise, and so true and clear from the point of view of what matters and what doesn't matter... That's why he's a hero here. We're all glad his voice is clearing things here.
Cheers,
Juan
Cheers,
Juan
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Juan, you forgot to say -so looong!! One of these days I will teach myself to write short and incisive posts!
As for black/white - yes, spend the money on a couple of tanks, reels and basic chemistry (should not be more than $100). No teacher is better than looking at your own negatives. The screw ups are there, the good ones are there (and there will be both kind).
It sounds like you are doing this for yourself - not as a money making proposition. Then, if it isen't fun - don't do it.
Sit down and go on to one of the Flickr sites and put it as slideshow. The "Black and White" one has a couple of millions images - just let them float by (not all of them though - visual overload!). You will see what grabs you and what makes you skip stuff.
It is a "zen" like experience - like being flooded with imagery.
Not all is good, actually most is rather mundane - but then suddenly something pops up that makes you stop and look.
There is a part of film that I like - it is the surprise. No instant feed back like digital. Usually a couple of days go by until you see what you shot and that's were the surprises come in.
I have probably shot 20-30 000 rolls of 35 for myself over 50 years - I am still excited hanging up 5-10 rolls to dry and do a quick scan down them. The day I am not - I quit!
As for black/white - yes, spend the money on a couple of tanks, reels and basic chemistry (should not be more than $100). No teacher is better than looking at your own negatives. The screw ups are there, the good ones are there (and there will be both kind).
It sounds like you are doing this for yourself - not as a money making proposition. Then, if it isen't fun - don't do it.
Sit down and go on to one of the Flickr sites and put it as slideshow. The "Black and White" one has a couple of millions images - just let them float by (not all of them though - visual overload!). You will see what grabs you and what makes you skip stuff.
It is a "zen" like experience - like being flooded with imagery.
Not all is good, actually most is rather mundane - but then suddenly something pops up that makes you stop and look.
There is a part of film that I like - it is the surprise. No instant feed back like digital. Usually a couple of days go by until you see what you shot and that's were the surprises come in.
I have probably shot 20-30 000 rolls of 35 for myself over 50 years - I am still excited hanging up 5-10 rolls to dry and do a quick scan down them. The day I am not - I quit!
Krosya
Konicaze
M5 has a meter, so does M7 and MP. I given price range M5 fits nicely as well. Thats if you have to go Leica. If you like the idea of M7 - I'd look into Hexar RF from Konica - also fits in this budget.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Tom,
I want to say something if you allow me to, and this is so true and comes from my heart...
Some times I go to flickr and start you gallery slideshow (it lasts for hours...) When I see your images, I just don't want to leave them... I stay there in calm, and time just stops... They just make me feel there... They take me close to a world another person lives in and sees... I feel they come from someone who enjoys life deeply, and someone who wants to share it without any trace of vanity... Your photographs have been the only ones that have made me feel exactly the same way I feel when I see Atget's photographs for a long time... After seeing hundreds of your shots, I return clean, and I just went there, seeing lots of things from normal, real, yet magical life... Your images are like pure water, like living, and I wanted to thank you for that, because they've been so very special to me... I thank heaven for your sweet words on RFF, and for having let me enjoy your beautiful photography. I know you're really humble, but I really feel you're something like our time's Atget.
And I'll stop because back alley will come soon and ask me if apart from being on cameraquest's payroll I'm also on rapidwinder's payroll...
With best regards,
Juan
I want to say something if you allow me to, and this is so true and comes from my heart...
Some times I go to flickr and start you gallery slideshow (it lasts for hours...) When I see your images, I just don't want to leave them... I stay there in calm, and time just stops... They just make me feel there... They take me close to a world another person lives in and sees... I feel they come from someone who enjoys life deeply, and someone who wants to share it without any trace of vanity... Your photographs have been the only ones that have made me feel exactly the same way I feel when I see Atget's photographs for a long time... After seeing hundreds of your shots, I return clean, and I just went there, seeing lots of things from normal, real, yet magical life... Your images are like pure water, like living, and I wanted to thank you for that, because they've been so very special to me... I thank heaven for your sweet words on RFF, and for having let me enjoy your beautiful photography. I know you're really humble, but I really feel you're something like our time's Atget.
And I'll stop because back alley will come soon and ask me if apart from being on cameraquest's payroll I'm also on rapidwinder's payroll...
With best regards,
Juan
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Tom A
RFF Sponsor
Thanks Juan for those kind words. Being, even in the slightest compared to Atget is overwhelming. OK, he did shoot a lot of horse drawn carriages - and I keep taking pictures of cars!!!
For many years I took pictures for a living, mainly industrial, technical. It almost killed my interest in photography. Once I started making Rapidwinders and stuff like that - photography was fun again. It is my diary - things I see. I dont attach a deeper meaning to it - but going back over negative files that 30-40 years old, it does transport you back - for good and bad.
Last week I ended up in the hospital with a rather rampaging pneumonia. No camera along and it felt strange for the 72 hours it lasted. Tuulikki brought an old M2 and a 35 in and I swear my blood pressure stabilized and even the food started to taste better!
I am very lucky insofar that I can spend time, as much as I want, in doing what I do and both of us are somewhat obsessed with imagery, our own, but more importantly - what others take pictures of.
For many years I took pictures for a living, mainly industrial, technical. It almost killed my interest in photography. Once I started making Rapidwinders and stuff like that - photography was fun again. It is my diary - things I see. I dont attach a deeper meaning to it - but going back over negative files that 30-40 years old, it does transport you back - for good and bad.
Last week I ended up in the hospital with a rather rampaging pneumonia. No camera along and it felt strange for the 72 hours it lasted. Tuulikki brought an old M2 and a 35 in and I swear my blood pressure stabilized and even the food started to taste better!
I am very lucky insofar that I can spend time, as much as I want, in doing what I do and both of us are somewhat obsessed with imagery, our own, but more importantly - what others take pictures of.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Oh, please take care... You live in a cold place and sometimes we think our bodies are fine...
I have had similar problems all my life because I was born being just seven months... Now it looks like I'll have to leave Europe and its seasons to live in a hot place, maybe in one or two years... Sometimes we have snow here, and the last two winters were hard for me... Not sure where... I guess I'll go someday to southern USA, maybe to live in LA or Miami, because I have dear relatives there...
Well, be very careful...
Cheers,
Juan
I have had similar problems all my life because I was born being just seven months... Now it looks like I'll have to leave Europe and its seasons to live in a hot place, maybe in one or two years... Sometimes we have snow here, and the last two winters were hard for me... Not sure where... I guess I'll go someday to southern USA, maybe to live in LA or Miami, because I have dear relatives there...
Well, be very careful...
Cheers,
Juan
karlori
Digital Refugee
Wow ! Almost 10 hours passed and so much helpful and insightful answers !
Thank you all for a good read and for making me answer a few questions to myself.
To add i already develop my own 120 B&W film and shoot with a 500CM in my spare time. The thing is i would love to have a meter in camera, be able to take it anywhere and have it endure a lot without me being worried about it like I worry about my dSLR. So i have been looking at the M6 and M7 as some of you suggested. The AE on the M7 is sure something i would like to have but is the cost difference worth it ? And by the way any other place to buy it except the ebay ?
Thanks a lot !
Thank you all for a good read and for making me answer a few questions to myself.
To add i already develop my own 120 B&W film and shoot with a 500CM in my spare time. The thing is i would love to have a meter in camera, be able to take it anywhere and have it endure a lot without me being worried about it like I worry about my dSLR. So i have been looking at the M6 and M7 as some of you suggested. The AE on the M7 is sure something i would like to have but is the cost difference worth it ? And by the way any other place to buy it except the ebay ?
Thanks a lot !
BillBingham2
Registered User
Here is the best place IMHO to buy stuff. Don't forget the M5, she is a wonderful camera. I owned an M6 and loved it. I 'm not a big AE guy (other than flash) so I would recommend an M6 or M5. The M5 has a dedicated following here of people who love it. Just for giggles save some money for a CLA from Sherry (Golden Touch), DAG or another world class engineer. You may not need it but it's easier to budget up front.
B2 (;->
B2 (;->