AlchimistaDigitale
Member
Hi to all,
this is my first post, and I star my life around this forum, with a question ,that I think that is the key for starting the "carrier" ad rangefinder photograph
I have read that some very old camera, has lens that can easily beat recent digital camera, smartphone and other...
My question is simple, actually I use a digital reflex that I use only in "all manual" setting, but I want to try a very good rangefinder.
I have read that some of the best camera and better lens, are some old Russian Ex-USSR camera, like Zorki 4, Kiev and the various FED, in alternative I have read that another solution are some Kodak Retine, Yaschica, Canomat etc... etc...
In conclusion, there is a camera around 100 dollar that have superb lens quality, very high quality all mechanical system? I'm interested specially to German camera, I have read that in past they are the best regarding "glass" and "mechanical camera"
I hope that someone can help me in the difficult choice of a excellent camera.
Thanks!
this is my first post, and I star my life around this forum, with a question ,that I think that is the key for starting the "carrier" ad rangefinder photograph
I have read that some very old camera, has lens that can easily beat recent digital camera, smartphone and other...
My question is simple, actually I use a digital reflex that I use only in "all manual" setting, but I want to try a very good rangefinder.
I have read that some of the best camera and better lens, are some old Russian Ex-USSR camera, like Zorki 4, Kiev and the various FED, in alternative I have read that another solution are some Kodak Retine, Yaschica, Canomat etc... etc...
In conclusion, there is a camera around 100 dollar that have superb lens quality, very high quality all mechanical system? I'm interested specially to German camera, I have read that in past they are the best regarding "glass" and "mechanical camera"
I hope that someone can help me in the difficult choice of a excellent camera.
Thanks!
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
Hi and welcome to RFF. There are many posts that deal with first rangefinder purchases, I suggest maybe you start reading there.
As for your budget, I don't know any mechanical German camera you can get for 100$ today, maybe not even a decent P&S.
I haven't used Russian cameras so I can't comment on those, I have tried Canon RF and Voigtlanders and I think they'd make an excellent start, while not excessively expensive are priced past 100$
Old cameras don't necessarily make better cameras, but some old ones still work perfectly well, I have one made in 1976 that still runs with no problems.
Do you have a reason for wanting a rangefinder in particular ? If you want to use a mechanical only manual film cameras there are also great SLR options which can be had for cheap
As for your budget, I don't know any mechanical German camera you can get for 100$ today, maybe not even a decent P&S.
I haven't used Russian cameras so I can't comment on those, I have tried Canon RF and Voigtlanders and I think they'd make an excellent start, while not excessively expensive are priced past 100$
Old cameras don't necessarily make better cameras, but some old ones still work perfectly well, I have one made in 1976 that still runs with no problems.
Do you have a reason for wanting a rangefinder in particular ? If you want to use a mechanical only manual film cameras there are also great SLR options which can be had for cheap
AlchimistaDigitale
Member
The problem is that I have read the various discussion on this forum, and there s a little confusion.... every people tell that a camera is better respect to other.
But exist a list of very very good camera with excellent lens that can guide a new user to the best buy?
But exist a list of very very good camera with excellent lens that can guide a new user to the best buy?
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
I can understand your confusion, I think we've all been there bu anyone on this forum will tell you there is no "best" buy there's only the best fit for what you're looking for. So, what exactly are you looking for in a camera ? what do you plan to use it for ? What do you expect from it ? etc
AlchimistaDigitale
Member
I expect:
- very excellent and sharp image, but with vibrant and clear color
- i will use for street photo and similar situation
- i require quality lens, the key for good quality photo is the lens (and a good photograph)
Thanks
- very excellent and sharp image, but with vibrant and clear color
- i will use for street photo and similar situation
- i require quality lens, the key for good quality photo is the lens (and a good photograph)
Thanks
lxmike
M2 fan.
welcome to the forum, try and get to a camera fair or a store and try out and handle as many cameras as you can, why? well there is no point getting a camera on another persons recommendation, as what may suit one person may not suit you. Its a great adventure, good luck, if you ask around everyone will have a favourite rangefinder, some may meet your needs, personally the Olympus 35 RC and the Kodak Retina IIa are my personal favourites.
kxl
Social Documentary
Welcome to the forum! Obviously, a budget is always a primary consideration. Secondly, the RF experience is not for everyone. In addition to the Russian interchangeable-lens bodies, you should also take a look at fixed-lens RF's.
https://www.cameraquest.com/com35s.htm
However, the caveat to using these older RF's under $100 is that their dim viewfinders are not in the same class as more expensive and/or modern RF's. That kind of first experience with a dim viewfinder may sour your experience and completely turn you off from using RF's.
So what I would advise is to find that happy middle ground of a not-so-expensive body that gives a you a not-so-dim viewfinder. To that end, I think you can find a Voigtalnder Bessa R for around $225-$250 these days.
Good luck!
https://www.cameraquest.com/com35s.htm
However, the caveat to using these older RF's under $100 is that their dim viewfinders are not in the same class as more expensive and/or modern RF's. That kind of first experience with a dim viewfinder may sour your experience and completely turn you off from using RF's.
So what I would advise is to find that happy middle ground of a not-so-expensive body that gives a you a not-so-dim viewfinder. To that end, I think you can find a Voigtalnder Bessa R for around $225-$250 these days.
Good luck!
rhl-oregon
Cameras Guitars Wonders
I concur with Mike. The Olympus RC and the Retina IIa with either of the 50/2 lenses are fine choices where decent examples are under $100. The Retina is German, despite the Kodak branding. If you spent a bit more on an Olympus SP, you'd have great spot metering.
For somewhat less, and with luck/careful shopping, it's possible to get a radical 1950s design Werra (when Zeiss engineers were repatriated to East Germany from Russia) with a 50/2.8 Tessar. I've had a Werramatic, and now have a Werra III in better condition, with a functional selenium meter and clear rangefinder. (The first Werras were scale focus.) There are also the Yashica Electros with fast lenses and metering aids.
Balda, Zeiss, and Voigtlander also produced very good budget rangefinder cameras in the 1950s-60s. My Baldamatic II produced great images with a Tessar-like lens. Others here may pitch in with descriptions of their favorite fixed-lens fixed-lens RF cameras.
In all cases, while you may hope for the best (a pristine but well-exercised camera), expect to ask sellers about whether their 40-60 year cameras are hard to focus, hard to change speeds, whether the levers advance well, whether the light-sealing foam in Japanese cameras is rotting or replaced, whether the viewfinder is dim and the RF patch clear, etc. Educate yourself with the tremendous web resources on these and similar cameras and you will be a good buyer. Karen Nakamura's site, http://www.photoethnography.com/, is a great example.
Good luck, have fun.
For somewhat less, and with luck/careful shopping, it's possible to get a radical 1950s design Werra (when Zeiss engineers were repatriated to East Germany from Russia) with a 50/2.8 Tessar. I've had a Werramatic, and now have a Werra III in better condition, with a functional selenium meter and clear rangefinder. (The first Werras were scale focus.) There are also the Yashica Electros with fast lenses and metering aids.
Balda, Zeiss, and Voigtlander also produced very good budget rangefinder cameras in the 1950s-60s. My Baldamatic II produced great images with a Tessar-like lens. Others here may pitch in with descriptions of their favorite fixed-lens fixed-lens RF cameras.
In all cases, while you may hope for the best (a pristine but well-exercised camera), expect to ask sellers about whether their 40-60 year cameras are hard to focus, hard to change speeds, whether the levers advance well, whether the light-sealing foam in Japanese cameras is rotting or replaced, whether the viewfinder is dim and the RF patch clear, etc. Educate yourself with the tremendous web resources on these and similar cameras and you will be a good buyer. Karen Nakamura's site, http://www.photoethnography.com/, is a great example.
Good luck, have fun.
siracusa
Well-known
Robert's advice is excellent. Can I add one to the mix of 50s and 60s designs: the Welta Belmira has a splendid lens (Tessar 50/2.8) and a very, very wide rangefinder baselength which makes focusing easy (ignoring the low contrast...). You'll struggle to find much with such a wide effective baselength as that. VF window is nice and large for composition, and this fine East German kit is usually very cheap.
As Robert suggests, the Voigtlander, Balda, etc rangefinders are excellent. I have a Voigtlander Vitomatic (IIa I think) with a 50/2.8 Color Skopar that is really excellent.
Don't forget the Petri rangefinders: excellent little things, and usually affordable.
Then there is the rather fiddly Olympus XA, which has a very good lens.
This list is just going to get longer and longer...I think the point is that there are many excellent cameras out there. Perhaps the way to go is to identify some in your price range and post them here so that people with experience of those cameras can give you some feedback to help you reach your decision.
As Robert suggests, the Voigtlander, Balda, etc rangefinders are excellent. I have a Voigtlander Vitomatic (IIa I think) with a 50/2.8 Color Skopar that is really excellent.
Don't forget the Petri rangefinders: excellent little things, and usually affordable.
Then there is the rather fiddly Olympus XA, which has a very good lens.
This list is just going to get longer and longer...I think the point is that there are many excellent cameras out there. Perhaps the way to go is to identify some in your price range and post them here so that people with experience of those cameras can give you some feedback to help you reach your decision.
Coopersounds
Well-known
It can be a mixed bag. I just bought a Canon VT with a 50mm 2.8 for $70 shipped, but have equally bought a fed2c with industar 61d at half that, both working fine.
Then I have bought duds. Oly xa2 for $60 that wouldn't advance film etc.
best bet would be ifrom the classifieds here
Then I have bought duds. Oly xa2 for $60 that wouldn't advance film etc.
best bet would be ifrom the classifieds here
batterytypehah!
Lord of the Dings
Another vote for a classic Voigtländer, the Vitomatic in particular. In addition to what's already been said above, the viewfinders are outstanding, very bright and big, meant to be used with both eyes open. In my experience, even the light meter usually still works, provided the camera comes with the leather case (which means it was probably stored out of the light).
Scrambler
Well-known
As has been said, there is no "correct" answer. If you are going for a single lens, fixed-lens or interchangable doesn't come into it. The Japanese makes are more "standard" in their layouts, the Russians cheaper for features and full of character (i.e. faults you can work around). In this bracket Germans are quirky and old, though well built.
You need to appreciate, though there are three basic types of rangefinder viewfinder. The first type is the separate viewfinder and rangefinder. These are usually on the oldest cameras, give magnified RF views and generally squinty (by modern standards) though clear viewfinders. The second type have combined RF and VF but with "soft" edged RF spots (and they usually though not invariably are spots). These have the same kind of RF mechanisms as the separate systems but without magnification, so their focusing accuracy is lower. Often the spots have faded over time and returning contrast is difficult (some put a black spot on the VF window, which sort of helps ... ish).
The third system is that used by Leica Ms and other higher quality RF cameras, which has hard, straight edges to the RF spot which allows us of the spot for double-image (within the spot) or aligning at the edge with a single image outside the spot. It looks cleaner, is easier to use and was only used in high-end cameras which will usually have worn better than cheaper versions (or may be a lot younger).
You will definitely be able to get cameras with the first or second type of RF/VF for your money. But you will not get the third.
If you want both a top-quality user experience and a sharp lens, you need a budget more like $4-500. For that money you get a Cosina Voigtlander and a decent Tessar-style lens, or an even better lens if you are lucky and patient.
For your budget, anything with a coated 4 element (Tessar) or greater lens in good condition will take pleasingly sharp pictures. The user experience part, though, you will need to try for yourself.
You need to appreciate, though there are three basic types of rangefinder viewfinder. The first type is the separate viewfinder and rangefinder. These are usually on the oldest cameras, give magnified RF views and generally squinty (by modern standards) though clear viewfinders. The second type have combined RF and VF but with "soft" edged RF spots (and they usually though not invariably are spots). These have the same kind of RF mechanisms as the separate systems but without magnification, so their focusing accuracy is lower. Often the spots have faded over time and returning contrast is difficult (some put a black spot on the VF window, which sort of helps ... ish).
The third system is that used by Leica Ms and other higher quality RF cameras, which has hard, straight edges to the RF spot which allows us of the spot for double-image (within the spot) or aligning at the edge with a single image outside the spot. It looks cleaner, is easier to use and was only used in high-end cameras which will usually have worn better than cheaper versions (or may be a lot younger).
You will definitely be able to get cameras with the first or second type of RF/VF for your money. But you will not get the third.
If you want both a top-quality user experience and a sharp lens, you need a budget more like $4-500. For that money you get a Cosina Voigtlander and a decent Tessar-style lens, or an even better lens if you are lucky and patient.
For your budget, anything with a coated 4 element (Tessar) or greater lens in good condition will take pleasingly sharp pictures. The user experience part, though, you will need to try for yourself.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Hi, welcome to the forum!
Rangefinder cameras require a bit more money than $100, even if a few of them can be found for that price... I recommend you to consider them that way, and save money for a nicer purchase... If you insist in the purchase you were thinking of, the best small quiet cheap camera you can use for street shooting is the Olympus XA, at f/5.6 and f/8... Even if in the future you get more expensive rangefinder cameras after the XA, the XA will remain an important camera and will hold its place because it's different to all cameras... Try to buy a functional one from a RFF member instead of any internet seller...
Good luck!
Cheers,
Juan
Rangefinder cameras require a bit more money than $100, even if a few of them can be found for that price... I recommend you to consider them that way, and save money for a nicer purchase... If you insist in the purchase you were thinking of, the best small quiet cheap camera you can use for street shooting is the Olympus XA, at f/5.6 and f/8... Even if in the future you get more expensive rangefinder cameras after the XA, the XA will remain an important camera and will hold its place because it's different to all cameras... Try to buy a functional one from a RFF member instead of any internet seller...
Good luck!
Cheers,
Juan
farlymac
PF McFarland
Get an Agfa Karat 36 with the Solinar lens, or Karat IV with the Soligon lens for a nice collapsible camera for street shooting. Their Super Silette with the Soligon is nice too, in a fixed mount, but the Apotar gives nice results for a triplet.
It's your first rangefinder, so just get one that isn't too expensive until you learn what features you will really need. Factor in a hood and filters, a small case to carry it all in, and some cleaning supplies. With the Agfa, you should be able to get all that and stay within your $100 budget.
PF
It's your first rangefinder, so just get one that isn't too expensive until you learn what features you will really need. Factor in a hood and filters, a small case to carry it all in, and some cleaning supplies. With the Agfa, you should be able to get all that and stay within your $100 budget.
PF
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Zorki, FED and Kiev are best in price department. Some of them are also easy to service.
Old cameras from Japan might have some old electronics in them...
Best RF camera is one which is problems free and fixable if problems will occurs.
FED-2 might be most reliable and relatively easy to service. Zorki 4, IMO, is in opposite.
Huge disadvantage of all common FSU RF is absence of any frames in VF. No precise framing , no parallax correction. Some FED-5 models will have it, but they not the best FSU in terms of quality.
So, almost all FSU RF will limit you to 50mm lens.
Some good ones are Industar-22, Jupiter-8 and best one is Jupiter-3 (reflected in market price).
I would recommend serviced and checked with film FED-2 with clean lens on it.
If no camera like this - it is going to be camera which needs at least cleaning, lubrication and adjustment service. 99% it will need it. And it is service which isn't easy to find at all. You will have to DIY, most likely.
If you have spare $600, get working Leica M2 with LTM-M adapter and one of the lens I mentioned before. To me it is one of the best RF cameras. Try it, if you like it, you are all set, add, change lenses. If you aren't RF person, sell it with very small loss.
Old cameras from Japan might have some old electronics in them...
Best RF camera is one which is problems free and fixable if problems will occurs.
FED-2 might be most reliable and relatively easy to service. Zorki 4, IMO, is in opposite.
Huge disadvantage of all common FSU RF is absence of any frames in VF. No precise framing , no parallax correction. Some FED-5 models will have it, but they not the best FSU in terms of quality.
So, almost all FSU RF will limit you to 50mm lens.
Some good ones are Industar-22, Jupiter-8 and best one is Jupiter-3 (reflected in market price).
I would recommend serviced and checked with film FED-2 with clean lens on it.
If no camera like this - it is going to be camera which needs at least cleaning, lubrication and adjustment service. 99% it will need it. And it is service which isn't easy to find at all. You will have to DIY, most likely.
If you have spare $600, get working Leica M2 with LTM-M adapter and one of the lens I mentioned before. To me it is one of the best RF cameras. Try it, if you like it, you are all set, add, change lenses. If you aren't RF person, sell it with very small loss.
Orbiter
Established
I recently bought an Agfa Ambi-Silette from Jurgen Kreckel (Vintage Folding Cameras) for $105. He did a CLA on the camera before selling it and included a 50 mm lens; everything works great and gives great results, easily comparable to results from other cameras already mentioned. For your price I don't think you could do better. Unless you buy something that has already had a CLA you probably should budget an additional $100 (I've bought a lot of $30 cameras that turned into $140 cameras before they could be used). The Agfa I purchased from Jurgen was like paying for a CLA and getting a free camera. And I love the camera.
JustPlainBill
Established
Hi,
Because the condition of the camera is so important, I'd suggest seeking one from a camera repair shop, a camera store that handles camera repairs, or the RFF classified ads. Here's wishing you good success.
JustPlainBill
Because the condition of the camera is so important, I'd suggest seeking one from a camera repair shop, a camera store that handles camera repairs, or the RFF classified ads. Here's wishing you good success.
JustPlainBill
BillBingham2
Registered User
A good place to start for your weekend reading.
https://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm
A lot depends on how deep you want to go. I'd second the Kodak Retina, IIIa, IIa, both great, Minolta made some great ones, Canon updated the Leica LTM design nicely.
If I were starting over again I would get a Nikon S2, the Nikkor 50 f2 or 1.4, your choice, both rock. Pick up either a Nikkor 28/3.5 or a CV 28 and use it full frame. It's a 1:1 viewfinder, very cool focusing wheel that works with both lenses and built to take a beating and keep on ticking.
Leica CLs are a bargain, lots of newer and older M glass that works well.
If you want to challenge yourself, look into a Bessa L and a CV 25 Snap-Shot. No RF needed, external finder that looks cool (as there is none built into the L) and IMHO perhaps the most fun chunk of glass and metal ever made for an LTM camera.
Again, I'd go Nikon S2, it's a highly under rated camera with a world class rangefinder.
B2
https://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm
A lot depends on how deep you want to go. I'd second the Kodak Retina, IIIa, IIa, both great, Minolta made some great ones, Canon updated the Leica LTM design nicely.
If I were starting over again I would get a Nikon S2, the Nikkor 50 f2 or 1.4, your choice, both rock. Pick up either a Nikkor 28/3.5 or a CV 28 and use it full frame. It's a 1:1 viewfinder, very cool focusing wheel that works with both lenses and built to take a beating and keep on ticking.
Leica CLs are a bargain, lots of newer and older M glass that works well.
If you want to challenge yourself, look into a Bessa L and a CV 25 Snap-Shot. No RF needed, external finder that looks cool (as there is none built into the L) and IMHO perhaps the most fun chunk of glass and metal ever made for an LTM camera.
Again, I'd go Nikon S2, it's a highly under rated camera with a world class rangefinder.
B2
btgc
Veteran
Your digital reflex is very good camera, better than old FEDs or Canonets. If you don't like lens (which you don't name), buy another.
If you insist on film camera, my question is why you ever consider 35mm format as step-up? 35mm is OK for someone used to small negative with all downsides and restrictions, but medium format film is obvious choice for someone wanting to accept costs and limitations of film route.
Rangefinder is no magic, it does certain things but it doesn't produce better images than SLR or scale focus camera except under very specific conditions (when you have invested in expensive lenses vs triplet wide open without accessory rangefinder).
Ah, just to try film rangefinder almost any is great. Olympus, Canon, Yashica and many others. FEDs and Zorkis also are great. Just be prepared to fix your camera instead of heading out shooting, expect to learn how stuff works, how to get it working and how to keep it working - unless you want to pay for someone who does it for you. These are old cameras and no one expects old car running hassle-free without maintenance, right? Or you have to buy serviced camera from responsible seller.
If you insist on film camera, my question is why you ever consider 35mm format as step-up? 35mm is OK for someone used to small negative with all downsides and restrictions, but medium format film is obvious choice for someone wanting to accept costs and limitations of film route.
Rangefinder is no magic, it does certain things but it doesn't produce better images than SLR or scale focus camera except under very specific conditions (when you have invested in expensive lenses vs triplet wide open without accessory rangefinder).
Ah, just to try film rangefinder almost any is great. Olympus, Canon, Yashica and many others. FEDs and Zorkis also are great. Just be prepared to fix your camera instead of heading out shooting, expect to learn how stuff works, how to get it working and how to keep it working - unless you want to pay for someone who does it for you. These are old cameras and no one expects old car running hassle-free without maintenance, right? Or you have to buy serviced camera from responsible seller.
hamradio
Well-known
Looking back at the mess of cheaper RFs I've owned, I think I'd go the fixed-lens route (echoing others) with the Canonet QL17 GIII (I've had three, now...), Olympus 35RC, Vivitar 35ES, or any number of others. I've never been a particular fan of the Yashica Electro 35 cameras; all three I've had felt kind of cheap, were large and clunky, but did have lenses that performed decently.
If you want to get into screwmount RFs, a brand new in-box Fed 5v with excellent Industar 61l/d can be had for about $40 on eBay...otherwise, I've noticed quite a few really cheap Canon screwmount bodies (~$90) on eBay, which would probably be a nice little combo with the previously mentioned Industar 61. I'd have a hard time recommending an older Zorki or Fed to someone, unless they are keen on fixing the camera themselves. Or, buy one of these older Russian cameras from someone known, like Fedka. So far, every old Zorki, etc. I've seen in person from eBay, supposedly with a fresh CLA, most definitely did not have recent work.
If you want to get into screwmount RFs, a brand new in-box Fed 5v with excellent Industar 61l/d can be had for about $40 on eBay...otherwise, I've noticed quite a few really cheap Canon screwmount bodies (~$90) on eBay, which would probably be a nice little combo with the previously mentioned Industar 61. I'd have a hard time recommending an older Zorki or Fed to someone, unless they are keen on fixing the camera themselves. Or, buy one of these older Russian cameras from someone known, like Fedka. So far, every old Zorki, etc. I've seen in person from eBay, supposedly with a fresh CLA, most definitely did not have recent work.