A Warning

[Guth]

It would seem that at the heart of such a discussion is the difference between a craftsperson and an artist. The two are not mutually exclusive —that can complicate matters. I'm guessing that each person's viewpoint regarding this topic is influenced at least somewhat by a couple of things.

1.) Whether they look at photography as an art, a craft or a combination of both.

2.) Whether they look at themselves as an artist, a craftsperson, or a combination of both.

I'm guessing that how they feel about their mastery of those aspects that truly matter to them regarding their art and/or their craft enters into the mix along with how they view others and their work.

 

[leicapixie]

The automatic functions on many cameras will DO their thing, even if person sets!
Check your data after exposure..
I believe that 3x"F's" all reqd!
Find,Focus,Frame and push button..
Sadly all those menus, histograms, shoot RAW are unnecessary..

 

[jsrockit]

generally sure, nevertheless aperture and / or shutter speed may constitute defining factors

So important that they deserve credit for a photo? I've never seen this information included in a museum or gallery. Only other photo nerds care about technical specs.

Let's be honest here... It's not hard to figure out how to make a proper exposure in manual. It's also not hard to understand what a photo looks like at f1.4 and at f8. Equally, why we use a shutter speed of 1/500th vs 1 second.

Now I use shutter priority to ensure I don't get shake on the street. A friend of mine thought this was silly. He was more concerned with bokeh. Well, I had to remind him that shutter speed is connected to the aperture and if I want to go wide open, I use a faster shutter speed. Etc. The cool thing about digital cameras is one can be in manual mode and use auto iso. This allows you to have the best combo for your photo and just let the iso run up and down to compensate (as long as you trust your cameras high ISO capabilities). I think the only problem with program is that it might choose the wrong combos and you get unusable images.

 

[Dogman]

Digital cameras are simple. People complicate them.

I'm always confused with a new camera. But once set up to use it as I like it, it becomes stupid simple. All those modes, all those focus settings, all those function buttons, all those "Art" modes and film simulations are worthless to me. Every camera I use is set the same so every time I pick up a camera I know what to expect. Set this way, the camera becomes a non-factor when taking pictures.

 

[Out to Lunch]

Digital cameras are simple

I agree. Just set it up as per your requirements and most digital cameras will be as simple to operate as a Leica M10, for a fraction of the price.

 

[pgk]

I agree. Just set it up as per your requirements and most digital cameras will be as simple to operate as a Leica M10, for a fraction of the price.

Which is fine until you want to do something else with it. I use a Sony A7II underwater but needed to copy some slides the other day. It took me 5 minutes to go through and reset everything because the camera would either not focus, not take the shot or do something else that I didn't want it to. The problem is figuring just how may parameters need to be reset if/when you need to change things. If the camera could understand my frustration it would probably be aware of what I thought of its parentage too. (I hold a degree in photographic science but we never covered the complexities and idiosyncracies of mutiple (pointless) menu cameras)

 

[Michael Markey]

Digital cameras are simple. People complicate them.

Very true and I use two Sony cams who ,as we know, don`t have the best menu system.

I switch between App and Speed priority (depending on static stuff or the horses ) and leave the ISO on Auto.
The camera sorts it out leaving me to do the photography.

When I pick up my M3/2 and 4 …. then I have to start thinking about the technical stuff.

 

[Sumarongi]

Well,... having spent half the night reactivating my house's central heating, I can say:
—— I wish they wouldn't build in these f**** menues that are obviously made to drive the consumer *BONKERS*!
OTOH, it is a fabulous central heating: I can switch whether it works fully automatically (the fuel is wood pellets in that case), or I can feed it with logs, manually.

 

[robert blu]

This is why I like to shoot the M10 or until a short time ago the Leica X1.
These are my only digital.
I shoot digital like I was used to shoot film, single shot, aperture priority, iso manual selected most of time, rarely chimping (only in the beginning of a shooting if light is difficult).

My wife shoots a Nikon D5100 and a D-109: both easy to shoot once they are configured but...if by accident you touch the wrong button (even worse if you touch two of them in some cases) you are lost...

robert

 

[willie_901]

I also rarely change settings.

 

[olifaunt]

I have an 80s manual focus film rangefinder (a CLE). I find it as fast, and more straightforward and simple to use than my digital Ricoh GR. I think for 30 years (except arguably for digital sensors, and I've abandoned even that) features have been added to still cameras that have no real advantage, just to compete in the technology arms race.

 

[kuuan]

So important that they deserve credit for a photo? I've never seen this information included in a museum or gallery. Only other photo nerds care about technical specs.

no, and I did not mean to say that.

...The cool thing about digital cameras is one can be in manual mode and use auto iso. This allows you to have the best combo for your photo and just let the iso run up and down to compensate (as long as you trust your cameras high ISO capabilities).

when using adapted lens, as I do, S mode + auto ISO is doing the same. Aperture set on lens, shutter by wheel on camera, camera chooses appropriate ISO

I think the only problem with program is that it might choose the wrong combos and you get unusable images.

this is, as I see it, "revers-confirming" what I had tried to say and actually we are in agreement, that, rather obviously, besides framing, composition and content often a specific aperture and / or shutter chosen is required to make a photo work

 

[jsrockit]

I understand now kuuan. I guess I always think these types of posts tend to think that if you understand how to use manual mode, you are a genius and that your photos are automatically better. Let's face it though... How many kids really only use program mode when creamy bokeh and sharpness are the fetishes of the internet amatuer on forums? It is not hard to learn how a shutter speed or an aperture works. There are even simple info-graphics showing people this now...

http://www.seeyoubehindthelens.com/2015/03/better-exposure-in-3-infographics-or.html?m=1

 

[Ste_S]

Bill: I am disappointed that you are equating "credit" for a photo to the ability to correctly set f-stop, shutter speed, focus, and ISO. Is that all there is to making great photos? Certainly you do not think so.

I simply do not believe that your significant lifetime success as a photographer came from your ability to correctly set f-stop, shutter speed, focus, and ISO. Do you not agree there is something in your eye, your soul, your intuition that is the primary "credit" for photography, not simple adjustments?

Yeah, absolutely. Nobody cares about your craft or camera's settings when they look at your photos.

I admire the craft of people back in the day who used to hand hold slow film with narrow latitude and nail exposure with a sharp image because there was no alternative. If people want to re-create that now by using vintage cameras and slide film, that fine.
In no way is it a required trait for taking a good photo though.

 

[Guth]

To me, that transition has been similar to moving from an automobile with a manual shift transmission to an automatic shift one.

That's an interesting analogy. Both cars will get you from point A to point B. Yet there is definitely less skill involved in driving a car with an automatic transmission than there is in driving a car with a manual transmission. When you arrive at your destination, few would ever know whether the car you drove to get there had a manual transmission or an automatic transmission nor would they care.

Just like some people want to have more involvement with their cars and the driving experience than others, some people want to have more involvement with their cameras and the photography experience. But once your photographs have been captured and presented to others, just as with the car scenario few would know whether the camera was in some automated/programmed mode or fully manual. Nor would they likely care.

The only ones who do seem to care are the "car guys" and the "camera guys". Everybody else is just glad that you arrived at your destination and that you have some nice photographs for them to look at.

 

[ptpdprinter]

If people want to re-create that now by using vintage cameras and slide film, that fine. In no way is it a required trait for taking a good photo though.

Some people treat shooting film or manual exposure as if it is a virtue. It's not. It is just one way of doing things. It carries no normative value.

 

[Michael Markey]

Some people treat shooting film or manual exposure as if it is a virtue. It's not. It is just one way of doing things. It carries no normative value.

Exactly ….

 

[pgk]

Some people treat shooting film or manual exposure as if it is a virtue. It's not. It is just one way of doing things. It carries no normative value.

Virtue no. A way of doing things which can be very useful though. Using skills to take an image only works in one's favour when it yields an image that would otherwise not be viable (say by taking it by shooting on auto). But like the fish that got away that's not easily quantifiable. What surprises me is that people expect automation to work but forget that if shooting manually they only need to change settings if the light changes. There are different ways of working and some work well for some but not for others. But don't get caught in the trap of thinking that one method suits all because it doesn't. FWIW I am faster using a fully manual, simplistic camera like a Leica M because I can shift the few controls fast and easily. My A7II on the other hand I find a very slow camera to operate because of its overly complex control menus.

 

[Michael Markey]

FWIW I am faster using a fully manual, simplistic camera like a Leica M because I can shift the few controls fast and easily. My A7II on the other hand I find a very slow camera to operate because of its overly complex control menus.

I use manual M bodies too as well as an A7s and A7R2 and this just isn`t so .

You don`t need to go into the menus if you want to change the things you change on an M body .

The menus only give you additional options if you require them.

I change speed and /or aperture and both are quickly changed on either body.

 

[kuuan]

My A7II on the other hand I find a very slow camera to operate because of its overly complex control menus.

hm..I don't have the II, but my A7 has five wheels. 3 wheels for the main settings, that is front and back wheels for aperture and shutter speed and a third on the back of the body, around the 4 way cursor, setting the ISO. On top of the camera are the function wheel and to the far right, very well located, the exposure compensation wheel. That, imo, makes normal operation about as easy as it gets!
Additionally there are dedicated AEL button, drive mode button, WB and "display" buttons ( turning on /off histogram, level indication asf. ) + 2 more configurable buttons, an MF/AF lever, the Fn button opening fast access to 12, configurable settings, find all those quite practical too