An expensive decision

[LCSmith]

When I was studying for a Masters in Philosophy following my retirement, we read all the phenomenologists. It my opinion, its history traced an arc from the consideration of the reality of things (Husserl) to an imposition of responsibility on the self for the other (Levinas). The history of Leica in my view has traced an arc from a focus on the camera as machine to the veneration of the brand. I prefer old phenomenologists and old Leica users. A lot less theology all around.

Interesting thesis. I admit, I don't see the theology connection.

 

[Calzone]

Interesting thesis. I admit, I don't see the theology connection.

L,

Back in undergrad I took an interdiciplinary course as an elective that involved science, art, philosophy and religion. In a broad sense it defined all these separate disciplines into systems of belief.

In quantum physics for example we believe quarks, gluons and electrons exist because of observed behaviors and not because we can see them. There is the Heisenberg theory of uncertainty where our beliefs can favor an outcome. An electron can be defined as a particle or a wavelength of energy depending on what we want to believe.

So this is relevant to Leica because we favor certain truths and create a reality around our cameras, sometimes engaging rational though, feeling, and self proclaimed logic. We create our own reality based on beliefs we hold as being true.

Is film verses digital any different than the arguments involving an electron. I for one embrace the duality.

Cal

 

[ptpdprinter]

Interesting thesis. I admit, I don't see the theology connection.

My take on phenomenology vs. theology requires some explication beyond the scope of the forum. Let's just say I parted ways with the phenomenologists when Levinas took the helm. My take on Leica owners is, simply put, in the old days owners venerated their Leicas qua cameras. Today, a fair portion of owners venerate their cameras qua Leicas. Leica marketing is largely responsible for this, but they have found a willing audience. This is not being curmudgeonly; I am fully engaged in the 21st century.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Bill I can only speak for me and the M 10 for me was a good choice. In fact I am probably going to pick another one up by the end of the year. I usually always have 3 color bodies for my pro work. So for now i have the M10, M 262, M-E and I have the MM for B&W and most of my personal work.

 

[Godfrey]

Rationalizing isn't an inherently pejorative proposition. Of course, you can make it so. Logic can be a tricky thing when dealing with desire. The mind is a marvelously flexible thing. It is largely a matter of being honest with yourself when considering your motivations. For example, I admire Robert's forthrightness. I am happy to entertain your dispassionate logic for moving to an M10 with its attendant cost from its immediate predecessor. Perhaps it will be of some benefit to Bill as he weighs his decision.

You're posing everything about this decision as a matter solely of "want."

In my purchase decision process, "want," "need," the expected advantages of the purchase, and the fit of particular gear for my intended purpose must be in the proper balance to make me press the Buy button.

This is what I mean by "reasoning" rather than "rationalizing". Rationalizing isn't necessarily pejorative, but it is second intent ... You want something and you contrive reasons to make it sensible in the usage posed on this thread.

That's not how I consider purchases of camera equipment. When I see something new that looks interesting, I look at how it poses an advantage to what I am currently using and what new things it might enable me to do that I haven't been able to achieve with consistency using what I have. If the thing enables something I haven't done before, I think about whether I want to do it, why, and what the chances are that I'll actually do it.

Sometimes these notions of intent and purpose shift as I start to do something too, and then the basis of what I've purchased changes. That's the point were I sometimes rationalize, "... Well, I thought I'd do some motion capture work, but I never really get to it because I have other things I'm doing that are more important to me. However, I like that equipment and there's no cost to keeping it, so I'll continue to keep it and use it for what I'm doing." Etc.

I looked at the M10. It came out after I already had the M-D, so when I looked at it I had the M-D with me to compare it specifically. My evaluation at that time was that the M-D was the better camera for me ... It met my needs and felt better in my hand. The latter is still true, but I'm considering a rather big change in my equipment holdings to accommodate what I'm actually doing now, three years on from getting the M-D and the SL. The M10's additional features would be more useful to me now given how I'm planning to change what I've got in the equipment cabinet.

The primary thrust of my advice is to let go of all the over-analysis and desire oriented vacillation, look at what you do and what equipment would do it best, and then make a simple decision based upon advantages and what you can afford. It's really not that difficult to do, or that difficult to understand the advice.

G

 

[ptpdprinter]

You're posing everything about this decision as a matter solely of "want."

Well, I was responding to your original post:

Erwin's prose is, as usual, impenetrable.

• If you want to buy a Leica M10, buy it.
• If you can't afford it but want it anyway, save up and then buy it.
• If you don't want it, buy something else if you must buy something.

Everything else is just rationalization and ambiguity.

The primary thrust of my advice is to let go of all the over-analysis and desire oriented vacillation, look at what you do and what equipment would do it best, and then make a simple decision based upon advantages and what you can afford. It's really not that difficult to do, or that difficult to understand the advice.

You have come a long way in fleshing out your decision making process. It makes more sense to me now, though I am still a little vague about all the "additional features" in the M10 you are referring too.

 

[Godfrey]

... I am still a little vague about all the "additional features" in the M10 you are referring to.

Only one is significant to my use: Live View. It provides flexibility to use my R lenses for macro, copy, and long telephoto work. That's primarily what I use the SL for now, and if I sell the SL, I need to have a good solution for these activities which I don't do regularly but do have a specific need for occasionally.

There are others, of course.

G

 

[ptpdprinter]

Only one is significant to my use: Live View. It provides flexibility to use my R lenses for macro, copy, and long telephoto work. That's primarily what I use the SL for now, and if I sell the SL, I need to have a good solution for these activities which I don't do regularly but do have a specific need for occasionally. There are others, of course.

The only significant reason you bought an M10 was so in case you sold your SL you would still have live view? I probably would have waited until I actually sold the SL so the benefit wasn't entirely hypothetical, but then I'm wary of rationalizations and try to keep my guard up. And the SL has an exquisite, best-in-class viewfinder for focusing manual R lenses which you would be giving up. Sounds like a losing proposition to me (proper tools for proper jobs and all that), but you better know what your requirements are. I really think you ought to go back to your original explanation: I wanted it, I had the money, I bought it. I'd have no issue with that. Worked out well for Robert, and I suspect for a lot of others too.

 

[LCSmith]

L,

Back in undergrad I took an interdiciplinary course as an elective that involved science, art, philosophy and religion. In a broad sense it defined all these separate disciplines into systems of belief.

In quantum physics for example we believe quarks, gluons and electrons exist because of observed behaviors and not because we can see them. There is the Heisenberg theory of uncertainty where our beliefs can favor an outcome. An electron can be defined as a particle or a wavelength of energy depending on what we want to believe.

So this is relevant to Leica because we favor certain truths and create a reality around our cameras, sometimes engaging rational though, feeling, and self proclaimed logic. We create our own reality based on beliefs we hold as being true.

Is film verses digital any different than the arguments involving an electron. I for one embrace the duality.

Cal

Indeed, much is in between the ears. What tantalizes is that it is not all between the ears. I think your analogy of belief is correctly stated. The best expression of this paradox is of course old G. M. Hopkins:

"It was a hard thing to undo this knot.
The rainbow shines, but only in the thought
Of him that looks. Yet not in that alone,
For who makes rainbows by invention?
And many standing round a waterfall
See one bow each, yet not the same to all,
But each a hand’s breadth further than the next.
The sun on falling waters writes the text
Which yet is in the eye or in the thought.
It was a hard thing to undo this knot."

 

[Godfrey]

The only significant reason you bought an M10 was so in case you sold your SL you would still have live view? ...

Are you just being dense to irritate me or to argue? I NEVER said that I bought an M10. I have not, and don't intend to at present.

Read what I wrote, not what you're imagining that I wrote.

G

 

[farlymac]

It's like this, Bill. If you know it will make you happy, and you can afford it, go ahead and get the M-10. It has to be superior to Leica's earlier attempts at a digital M. And like I said earlier, it's just another body, you already have the lenses.

Me, I'm going with a ZM, as I still can't afford an M7 (and since they just killed that line, I won't likely for an even longer while now). But I just invested in one of my other long time pursuits, a Hasselblad 500C. Mainly to help out a friend, but also because I could spring the money for it on short notice. It wasn't in the plan, but as the great Yogi once said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it."

It's always interesting to see if I took the proper one.


PF

 

[ptpdprinter]

Are you just being dense to irritate me or to argue? I NEVER said that I bought an M10. I have not, and don't intend to at present. Read what I wrote, not what you're imagining that I wrote.

My apologies. I misread your posts. To be honest, I'm relieved. I thought you had lost it. Turns out I had.

 

[Bob Baron]

I have been an amateur taking photography seriously since the late fifties. I'll be 75 in 2 weeks. I like my Leica M-P 240 because I understand how it works. Canons and Nikons are too heavy. Fujis and Olympii are too complicated. I'll probably buy a second M-P 240 because I don't want two different sets of batteries, otherwise I think I'd be happy with two M10s. I feel naked with just one Leica body.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

--Bob

 

[Bill Pierce]

Well, I’ve made my decision about whether to buy an M10 or not. And the reason behind the decision won’t apply to many of the folks on the forum. More and more of professional photography assignments, what we used to think of as “still” photography, now combines stills and motion. We’re not talking about blockbuster movies or even hard hitting documentaries. We’re talking about little 2 minute and 5 minute clips for the web. There are a lot of folks saying, “I just do stills.” and wondering why their workload is diminishing as internet publishing grows and the printed page diminishes. Fortunately, there are a lot of folks saying, “You want pictures that wiggle; I can do that.” The digital cameras that I use now, Fujis, can take “movies.” but not with the ease and quality provided by some of the other mirrorless systems. But that’s changing with the introduction of the H-1. So, the $$$ for a new play toy along with some new lenses will be going to Fuji. Rangefinder fans can take solace in the fact that a lot of Leica lenses will end up on the Fuji simply because manual focus lenses (and a decent camera operator) follow focus more smoothly than most of the automatic systems built into the small mirrorless cameras.

One other issue… Cal talked about being called a “Leica fanboy” and mentioned two folks who went after him taking about the superiority of Sony to Leica. I’ve always been grateful and proud that this sub forum has behaved with courtesy towards each other, especially considering that some of the topics do deal with issues that not everybody agrees on. I’ve only had to have one person blocked from the forum. If the folks who went after Cal did it on this sub forum, I apologize for not catching them. But most of all, I want to thank all the folks who come here and behave well. It’s not something you see everywhere on the internet, and I’m very proud of all of us.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Bill I guess I have been lucky. I only do stills and I have had the busiest first two quarters I have ever had. I had a great year last year and this years has been a lot busier. I was thinking that i should be slowing down at this point in my career but life sometimes shows you it has a different path. I only do corporate work so I deal with folks that realize that you can be really good at video and not so good at stills and vise versa.

Good luck...

 

[farlymac]

A wise choice, Bill. Go with what gets the shot. I know that for a long time I resisted getting into digital photography simply because I didn't feel it had advanced enough to satisfy me.


But when I did, and found I could shoot little videos along with the stills, it just opened up a whole new dimension of the story telling I like to do with my subjects.


Of course with video, there are all sorts of rigs and lighting accessories you can busy yourself with, not to mention the cine still lenses with their click-less T stops.


It can get expensive if you don't watch out.


PF

 

[Dogman]

Sounds like a well-thought out decision, Bill. As someone who has never shot a minute of video, its importance for today's working pros never occurred to me.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

With video you need to have very good skils and computer, software.
Or pay to one who has it.
If none of it, it just theoretical talk about video.

Cal is for California Sunshine. Everyone who tries to mock him here is my enemy number one.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I have found with video (I had both film and video production class when I was in college and did well in both) you need different skills fro m the skill you need to do still photography.. Motion is a very different way of seeing form finding and freezing moments.

I am fortunate that most of my clients totally understand this and hire those that have those skills just like they hire someone like me for the skills I have. Just because you have the tools that have those capabilities doesn't mean you are automatically good at it. And most of my clients hire people that have video cameras designed for that kind of work. Not still cameras that can do video. There is a difference. I am thankful that most of the people I work for understand all of this and have budgets.

The mind set that someone has video on their cameras so they should do video is like someone that has graphic design programs can automatically do professional level design work. Sure it can happen but it is highly unlikely.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Back in the day, I had a family video camera. If boring slide shows are a meme, boring video shows take it up a notch. Which is why I have never turned on the video features of my cameras. Unfortunately, shooting brief video segments has become necessary for most professional photographers. There is even an acronym for it which escapes me at the moment. As a result, my local community college is adding video to the required photography curriculum this year. Of course the M10 was never in contention, so the Edwin Puts article and your original post seem like clever deflections to send us down a rabbit hole while you had something entirely different up your sleeve. It looks like the X-H1 arrived on the scene just in time for you. You are a talented guy, so I am confident you will sort it out. Good luck.