FrankS
Registered User
Props to Turtle for this post!
NickTrop
Veteran
I would love to own a Leica film camera - not the M8, that you can keep. I can also afford on if I wanted. However, imo, the difference in quality simply - to me, doesn't justify the price differential over a Japanese FLRF I can readily get for around $100. I know that that might be sacrilege in some circles... I view these cameras as the "Lexus" (not the Chevy) of the camera world. What I mean by that is, just like the Japanese swooped down in the 80's and ate the German luxury car manufacturers lunch by producing a luxury car that rivaled the German top of the line autos, and created a competing car that due to price was a far better value proposition... A decade or two prior, the Japanese did this with cameras - specifically rangefinders. It's especially true now on the used market...
A Konica Auto S3 that came out in the 70's is an example of this. A Konica Auto S3 has an outstanding lens, fits in the palm of your hand, a nearly silent shutter, and a bright rangefinder. Mine cost -and I got a decent deal, $100 CLA'd (seller's starting bid was $100 - he wanted to get his money back for the CLA, obviously... no other bidders...) Granted, it's not an interchangable lens "system" camera and it's shutter priority. To me - again, sacrilege, SLRs are better designs that RFs for interchangable lenses except for wides, and I'm not a "wide" shooter, only sometimes, I'll live with the quality differential there since it's not that important to me. To me, RF photography is a "style" - throw some black and white film in your camera and take "street" photos and candids that produce high-quality results in black and white (usually). I want at least "some" control over the camera - SS or aperture, but the key is a great fast lens and stealthiness.
A $100 Konica Auto S3 (Or a Fujica Compact Deluxe, or an Oly SP or RD... there's a bunch of them) gives me everything I want - it even rivals the Leica in the lens quality department if you're to believe the infamous "62-82" center resolution claims for the Konica. It's actually better in some respects - having a pretty cool flash system and is stealthier, smaller, and even probably quiter, I think, than a Leica.
Again - this is a camera you can get in good condition for $100-$150-ish. To me, the value proposition just isn't there with a Leica, especially on the used market, when compared to the better Japanese FLRF cameras. A camera like a Konica Auto S3 gets you where you want need to be without spending a wad.
A Konica Auto S3 that came out in the 70's is an example of this. A Konica Auto S3 has an outstanding lens, fits in the palm of your hand, a nearly silent shutter, and a bright rangefinder. Mine cost -and I got a decent deal, $100 CLA'd (seller's starting bid was $100 - he wanted to get his money back for the CLA, obviously... no other bidders...) Granted, it's not an interchangable lens "system" camera and it's shutter priority. To me - again, sacrilege, SLRs are better designs that RFs for interchangable lenses except for wides, and I'm not a "wide" shooter, only sometimes, I'll live with the quality differential there since it's not that important to me. To me, RF photography is a "style" - throw some black and white film in your camera and take "street" photos and candids that produce high-quality results in black and white (usually). I want at least "some" control over the camera - SS or aperture, but the key is a great fast lens and stealthiness.
A $100 Konica Auto S3 (Or a Fujica Compact Deluxe, or an Oly SP or RD... there's a bunch of them) gives me everything I want - it even rivals the Leica in the lens quality department if you're to believe the infamous "62-82" center resolution claims for the Konica. It's actually better in some respects - having a pretty cool flash system and is stealthier, smaller, and even probably quiter, I think, than a Leica.
Again - this is a camera you can get in good condition for $100-$150-ish. To me, the value proposition just isn't there with a Leica, especially on the used market, when compared to the better Japanese FLRF cameras. A camera like a Konica Auto S3 gets you where you want need to be without spending a wad.
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FrankS
Registered User
Nick, I began my RF experience with several Japanese fixed lens cameras. They were nice, and great value, but the Leica to me, feels so much better, like the diff between a Chevy Chevette and a Lexus. A used Leica M can be bought for the same amount as several of the fixed lens RF cameras, so the price is not silly high, and you get the Lexus feel. I can't aford a Lexus, and I wouldn't pay the price of a new Leica, but a used M2? No problem.
NickTrop
Veteran
Frank - been tempted many times. Yes, you can find Leica bodies that won't break the bank - but then you're itchin' for a Cron, (and no, the Cosina lenses simple won't do... Nor will the FSUs, except as a "filler lens" until you get the Cron...) Then the 35, then all the other focal lengths...
I'd have to go to a LOT of trouble to Frankenstein a Cron on to a Konica FLRF
Stuck with the lens I got that's bolted to the camera. I don't keep beer in the house for the same reason (or single malt scotch for that matter). Ain't there, therefore won't be sucking them down... Know thine self 
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
Here, Here!, this morning I walked around my local park with the M2 and one lens - my humble, but rather nice Jupiter 8, the resulting Agfa 400 negs are now hanging near a radiator to dry. If I had screwed the J8 on my Fed 2, the result would have been the same, but that M just feels so much nicer!, tactile!...not grease!....is the word!
Cheers, Dave.
FrankS
Registered User
No one is forced to go with expensive Leica glass. I don't. I do have some older Leica lenses, but don't even entertain the idea of getting a Noctilux or an asphereical lens. I'd rather have a Leica body and no Leica lenses, than Leica lenses with no Leica body. That's just me. A J8, J3, or Canon 50 f1.8 would be fine.
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NickTrop
Veteran
Bah! You guys are a bad influence. Puts hands over ears... Lah, lah, lah... States mantra - I will not buy another camera, I will not buy another camera...
NickTrop
Veteran
Back to the Konica Auto S3. Here's why I'm getting a growing appreciation for that camera... Tiny, great lens. I have kids and some nephews. They have now been conditioned to run when "Uncle Nick" has his camera... They call me the "paparazzi". I've shot them with a number of cameras over the years...
I am able to get the most candids with the Konica Auto S3. It's so small, stealthy, and quite they don't notice it. I prefocus - snap. That's the only camera I own that they don't notice me putting to my eye and are usually completely unaware I took their pic. Combine this with the great glass... and "to me" for my purposes, it's what a RF is all about. I have enough control to throw the background out of focus... I can shoot at its max ap with 62 lines in the center - I get good pics wide open. It's a late RF so the coating is decent against flare...
The Leica - a bigger camera, would certainly get noticed. The Konica passes the stealth test better. For what I consider the practical advantages of the RF - the Konica, I'm sure, would have the Leica beat.
I am able to get the most candids with the Konica Auto S3. It's so small, stealthy, and quite they don't notice it. I prefocus - snap. That's the only camera I own that they don't notice me putting to my eye and are usually completely unaware I took their pic. Combine this with the great glass... and "to me" for my purposes, it's what a RF is all about. I have enough control to throw the background out of focus... I can shoot at its max ap with 62 lines in the center - I get good pics wide open. It's a late RF so the coating is decent against flare...
The Leica - a bigger camera, would certainly get noticed. The Konica passes the stealth test better. For what I consider the practical advantages of the RF - the Konica, I'm sure, would have the Leica beat.
FrankS
Registered User
The S3 would be a great camera for me if it also had full manual control as well as shutter priority. I used to have one. Great lens, small size. You should try a Leica CL.
NickTrop
Veteran
The S3 would be a great camera for me if it also had full manual control as well as shutter priority. I used to have one. Great lens, small size. You should try a Leica CL.
Work arounds - exposure lock, ASA control. No, not as good as manual, of course, but I use manual to compensate for backlighting (point to floor, lock exposure), and to set to a faster SS to get the aperture where I want it to throw background out of focus (not hard to do with SS). If I'm shooting at 1600 ISO, I use a different camera or just set it to 800 - not that big of a deal.
Love to own a CL too... And a Hexar - both of them, and a G, and a Leica... I'd have a darned warehouse.
Actually, I don't think a Leica would make me a better photographer or improve my pic all that much is what it boils down to. And, I think my latest camera count is 8? Enough!
FrankS
Registered User
I would never make the claim that a Leica will make anyone a better photographer.
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Nh3
Well-known
When I take my Leica on the street I feel self conscious that people might think I'm a poser. This is despite the black tape all over its logos.
That disrupts my concentration and I take lousy photos. So, Leica makes me a bad photographer!?
That disrupts my concentration and I take lousy photos. So, Leica makes me a bad photographer!?
Svitantti
Well-known
Why wouldnt Voigtländer lenses do just fine? I dont know. I'd be very happy with a 35/1.7 Ultron, but I just was lucky to find a 'cron at about the same price so I got it. Mostly just because it is smaller. Maybe a bit sharper wide open too.
I certainly wouldn't have bought it for the normal price and I will surely kind of miss my Ultron.
I certainly wouldn't have bought it for the normal price and I will surely kind of miss my Ultron.
Gumby
Veteran
Nh3
Well-known
Its also not fit for a tough guy on the street image. Joe Peci, Tony Soprano, Dirty Harry, Rambo, Bruce Lee, Jet lee (maybe he will lol) none of these guys would carry a Leica.
photogdave
Shops local
Nh3
Well-known
I don't think subconscious tells us anything to do, if that was the case it would the "conscious mind" not the "subconscious", get it?
Edit: instead of being a troll, try to take better pictures. You're added to the ignore bin as well.
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photogdave
Shops local
Can someone tell this guy to get a sense of humor?I don't think subconscious tells us anything to do, if that was the case it would the "conscious mind" not the "subconscious", get it?
Edit: instead of being a troll, try to take better pictures. You're added to the ignore bin as well.
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
Nh3
Well-known
Beats me why anyone puts black tape on a Leica,-or any other old camera.....unless it has light leaks?. No ones ever taken eception to my choice of camera, if they did I would probably give sound advice regarding sex and travel!! .....now I suppose I'm on the ignore list!
Dave.
First of all it stops all those who are ready for gear chat (as mentioned above)... And this is crucial for me because I can get distracted very fast and I try very hard to concentrate. Secondly it makes the gear look "cheap" which throws off some of the potential thieves.
And on a personal level I refuse to be a means of mobile advertisement for camera companies.