Are you anxious about the demise of film?

Are you anxious about the demise of film?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 31.8%
  • No

    Votes: 158 49.2%
  • It's only about the apocalyptic discussions anyway

    Votes: 33 10.3%
  • Can't be bothered

    Votes: 28 8.7%

  • Total voters
    321
  • Poll closed .
I understand how film is made and how it's all cut from master rolls. Companies like Ilford and Kodak are now requiring substantial orders before setting up to cut these low demand sizes. I believe Kodak requires the commitment to purchase an entire master roll and think this is true of Ilford. Sizes like 120 and sheet sizes are low demand now compared to 35mm. I think eventually even 35mm will become a special order items requiring large purchased and available perhaps once a year like Ilford is doing with sheet sizes other than the popular emulsions and sizes.

Not really, because you can't just run a coating line for a month or two a year. It's not so much about conversion as about stock control: when you've sold everything, you don't have lots of boxes of odd film sizes sitting in warehouses.

Cheers,

R.
 
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Not really, because you can't just run a coating line for a month or two a year.

If you leave out the accountant's dislike to leave any investment unused, that is mostly a staff matter though - you cannot really lay off your experts and hope to hire them again eleven months later, and even if you move them to another task for that period, they cannot seamlessly pick up where they left off, so that the up-front cost for the coating run will increase.

But coating lines can coat more than silver-photographic film - products like chromatography films, LCD display foils or inkjet paper use the same coating technology as photographic film or paper. As far as I can make out, all German operators of coating lines now have a mixed business model and do non-silver photographic coating jobs as well...
 
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If you leave out the accountant's dislike to leave any investment unused, that is mostly a staff matter though - you cannot really lay off your experts and hope to hire them again eleven months later, and even if you move them to another task for that period, they cannot seamlessly pick up where they left off, so that the up-front cost for the coating run will increase.

But coating lines can coat more than silver-photographic film - products like chromatography films, LCD display foils or inkjet paper use the same coating technology as photographic film or paper. As far as I can make out, all German operators of coating lines now have a mixed business model and do non-silver photographic coating jobs as well...

I believe you're right about coating other things, but even so, there must be a limit to how many lines are needed to coat how many things, quite apart from emulsion cookery. And the question of part-time staff is probably a clincher either way.

Cheers,

R.
 
Does anyone here actually have some real, concrete knowledge of what is required to run an economically viable film production plant? I imagine it to be a lot more complex and difficult procedure than pressing vinyl albums, which seems to me to be the best analogy that's been used so far. But I could be completely wrong. Anyone?

Hard number to prove through regression.

Vinyl and film are not synonymous. Film is phenomenally more difficult to produce and package to high quality standards because almost all must be done in the dark.

My hunch trough some economics of prior industry performance is film sales totalling near US$150 million at today's nominal values, not factoring in motion picture industry sales. This would keep a few production lines open, but the operational and recap costs would be considerably higher, so look at film prices to increase proportionately.

Alongside this will be required output of about a hundred thousand new film cameras every year. That number has already fallen off a cliff, so the bigger worry is recap there, especially with the variety of designs necessary, from pinhole (cheap) to MF SLR (expensive).

Processing and printing equipment is also an issue. Home darkroom stuff may be made for quite some time, but I'd expect costs to soar as demand weakens. Variety will also be substantially curtailed. Mini-labs,critical to colour processing, are also problematic.

Without colour film B&W takes a massive affordability hit as by far most people prefer colour as does the cinema industry. The problem for B&W is the emulsions and substrate and shared chemicals and manufacturing systems rely on a joint economy-of-scale. Take colour out of the production runs and B&W home hobbyists have to shoulder 100% of the costs of esoteric equipment plus recap and technical training.

Film is an industrial process requiring a substantial market to amortize investments and operational costs. Where the tipping point numbers lie is anyone's guess right now. I made mine. I will however go on the record as saying all 135 and 120 and LF film are endangered if the mini-lab colour systems fold. I cannot see even a single factory running to produce these films for a hobby market of home developers. These processes take hundreds of employees with idiosyncratic tech know-how. They will not be able to economically produce mass manufacture film for garage darkrooms. The gap between capital and demand is substantial in most scenarios I look at.
 
Worried more about the disappearance of local processing. If and when Costco stops processing C-41, I'll be down to using the only remaining local pro lab at more than twice the money. Once that's out of business, I'll be down to mail order or self-processing, which I know I probably won't do...
 
P.S.: Does Fuji even still make film? Kodak has at least released some new films recently, but Fuji has just discontinued stuff, as far as I know. So if Kodak stops making film as part of a bankruptcy reorg, are we going to be down to niche players for B&W only?
 
P.S.: Does Fuji even still make film?

Well, they slightly revamped their CN line recently. But of course we can't know - in the past Fuji only announced the discontinuation of films once they stopped spooling them, which tends to be months or even years after the last casting. And even if they should happen to be making a batch today they might call it quits tomorrow.
 
Anxious - no.
Sort of concerned - yes.

When I decided I wanted to get back into film and do it via medium format, Fuji dropped the Neopan 400 in 120. Seeing B&W through this film and in medium format was what brought me back. Major bummer when I finally got my hands on an affordable Bessa II. This was the film I really wanted to play with - something about it seemed magical. I finally have a couple of nice medium format folders - but no Neopan 400. I like Acros and have just tried Tmax 400 and have yet to try some of Ilford's products. I think 35mm film will always be around and the film to feed its masses will also be there. But medium format and larger are the equvilent of Cousin Itt.

It's like finally falling in love only to find they have a terminal disease and knowing life is short as it is without such complications. You know that day will eventually come - you just wonder close it is.
 
P.S.: Does Fuji even still make film?

They just came out with a film camera recently- I wonder why they don;t seem to be all that interested in making film???


So if Kodak stops making film as part of a bankruptcy reorg, are we going to be down to niche players for B&W only?

I wdon;t know if Ilford is a niche player- but I'm happy with Ilford and Adox for film....
 
film

film

Film will not go away in the foreseeable future - in my lifetime. Just enjoy the great choice provided by film and digital. Both are wonderful mediums and have their respective artistic uses. Let us get over being concerned about film. It is a useless anxiety causing issue for some people. Life is too short and photography - in either medium- too much fun to worry needlessly about something that will not happen in the lifetime of most RF members. Go and take pictures as I am doing right now on the northern coast of California - with digital and film.
 
Like many here, I'm not worried about the demise of film, because I don't believe it is going to happen soon. Film will become a niche market, but it won't die.
 
Anxious - no.
Sort of concerned - yes.

When I decided I wanted to get back into film and do it via medium format, Fuji dropped the Neopan 400 in 120. Seeing B&W through this film and in medium format was what brought me back. Major bummer when I finally got my hands on an affordable Bessa II. This was the film I really wanted to play with - something about it seemed magical. I finally have a couple of nice medium format folders - but no Neopan 400. I like Acros and have just tried Tmax 400 and have yet to try some of Ilford's products. I think 35mm film will always be around and the film to feed its masses will also be there. But medium format and larger are the equvilent of Cousin Itt.

It's like finally falling in love only to find they have a terminal disease and knowing life is short as it is without such complications. You know that day will eventually come - you just wonder close it is.

If you were looking to shoot Neopan 400 ISO BW in 120 the next best and it's a very good next best is Ilford's HP5+ which is a 400 ISO film. I used it this summer and I'm finding it's doing the job. I might even have a difficult time eventually distinguishing a scan of my older negs in Neopan compared to the HP5+ negs. Give it a go and see what you think.
 
If you were looking to shoot Neopan 400 ISO BW in 120 the next best and it's a very good next best is Ilford's HP5+ which is a 400 ISO film. I used it this summer and I'm finding it's doing the job. I might even have a difficult time eventually distinguishing a scan of my older negs in Neopan compared to the HP5+ negs. Give it a go and see what you think.

For a Neopan 400 look you might give HP5+ @ 800 in Rodinal 1:25 a try. Yes, really. I've never made Neopan 400 work for me so I'll defer to visiondr on Neopan always, but I find I can get something pretty close to what he gets on Neopan 400 (which is as near to B&W perfection as it gets) with this combo.
 
I agree on the merits of the HP5+. Should they ever stop making Tri-X, it could easily become my 400 ASA film of choice. That and Tmax 100 is all I'd need.
 
Worried more about the disappearance of local processing. If and when Costco stops processing C-41, I'll be down to using the only remaining local pro lab at more than twice the money. Once that's out of business, I'll be down to mail order or self-processing, which I know I probably won't do...

I don't know what it's like in the US, but in Germany actual local processing is done practically only in minilabs. However, you can drop your film at grocery stores etc., they send it out to central processing (usually to a company called CeWe) and you get it with your prints within a few days. It's cheap and quite comfortable. That kind of service will be viable for a long, long time, if you can live with the wait.
 
If you were looking to shoot Neopan 400 ISO BW in 120 the next best and it's a very good next best is Ilford's HP5+ which is a 400 ISO film. I used it this summer and I'm finding it's doing the job. I might even have a difficult time eventually distinguishing a scan of my older negs in Neopan compared to the HP5+ negs. Give it a go and see what you think.

You can also try Adox AP400 (the APX 400 replacement) once it's out; the people I know who tried their experimental "first coating" in 2010 seemed to quite like the thing.
 
I don't think film is going South, but Kodak seems to be. For a while I thought this was just the usual copy from the Film Alarmist Cult, but I read some statements today from Kodak's big muckity mucks that was highly illuminating. They strongly deny they are filing for bankruptcy.

Unless you're asleep at the wheel, you know what that means when it comes from those two-time-talkers. Buy that Tri-X now.
 
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