Are you anxious about the demise of film?

[wgerrard]

Where did the guy who built his own film coater get the film that he coated? Lotus, et all, wouldn't be able to make a few cars every year, no matter how much money a few people were willing to pay, if they couldn't buy the parts they need.

As i've said, i don't doubt some fanatics will try making film in the basement. That doesn't count, in my view. I like film. There's a bunch in the fridge. But, it's a dodo.

 

[perudo]

honestly, I don't understand why here, on rff, everybody is so anxious about the end of film! Film sales are up those last years and more and more enthusiasts are converting to film those last years. (including a lot of young people)
I predict a real comeback of film, just like vinyl did some years ago.
Some famous brands may disappear, but others will surely continue, and I don't think prices will go higher, even if film becomes a niche market. The only thing that could influence prices (and is actually influencing prices now) is the price of raw materiels, like silver, which just like gold has increased recently.

 

[wgerrard]

You are really going to compare making film to making summicrons? All you have to do is look at any outdated tech that people still enjoy and see that someone will still make it...

Right it makes no sense to make 35mm film in your kitchen because you can still buy for as low as $2.00 a roll. I'm not saying someone is going to make it in their kitchen. However, someone will make it. Who would have thought Voigtlander would have made several NEW rangefinders in the 90s and 00s? Did they do this because it was going to be seriously profitable?

I think making film -- from scratch -- that can be used in the film cameras we use is almost certainly beyond the abilities of hobbyists and enthusiasts.

Film's days as a commercial product are numbered. What hobbyists try to do tomorrow doesn't really matter. What matters is ordinary people going to the store and buying a little film camera because they want to take pictures of the kids. That stopped a long time ago. Now, they'll just use their phone. just like all those people in Asia and Africa we sometimes hear are going to "save" film.

 

[NickTrop]

I don't think there's any cause for concern, really. Alls I'm saying is you're fine for now but that I think there will be a definite endpoint to film production and it's on the horizon... that endpoint I'd peg at around 15 years, that "15 years" is a wild-arse guess on my part, I don't want it to ever end but the writing is on the wall as I see it because there are hardly any new film cameras being made and even the movie camera industry has completely stopped making them as of this year... your old camera won't work forever, and there will be no parts or skilled labor around to keep them alive... that death will be a slow one - year after year, manufactures will stop production of more and more lines... blah, blah, blah. But 15 years is a pretty long time, and digital ain't all that bad - c'mon now. As far as "why so many threads"? It's only natural and a big concern, obvs, on a film photography/camera forum. To be expected.

 

[Roger Hicks]

You are really going to compare making film to making summicrons? All you have to do is look at any outdated tech that people still enjoy and see that someone will still make it...

Right it makes no sense to make 35mm film in your kitchen because you can still buy for as low as $2.00 a roll. I'm not saying someone is going to make it in their kitchen. However, someone will make it. Who would have thought Voigtlander would have made several NEW rangefinders in the 90s and 00s? Did they do this because it was going to be seriously profitable?

You're right, it's not a very good comparison. Making film is VASTLY more difficult than making Summicrons.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I don't think there's any cause for concern, really. Alls I'm saying is you're fine for now but that I think there will be a definite endpoint to film production and it's on the horizon... that endpoint I'd peg at around 15 years, that "15 years" is a wild-arse guess on my part, I don't want it to ever end but the writing is on the wall as I see it because there are hardly any new film cameras being made and even the movie camera industry has completely stopped making them as of this year... your old camera won't work forever, and there will be no parts or skilled labor around to keep them alive... that death will be a slow one - year after year, manufactures will stop production of more and more lines... blah, blah, blah. But 15 years is a pretty long time, and digital ain't all that bad - c'mon now. As far as "why so many threads"? It's only natural and a big concern, obvs, on a film photography/camera forum. To be expected.

As long as substrate is available, someone will almost certainly find it commercially worth while to coat film (at least black and white) -- and there are quite a few options for substrate, including polyesters.

What's difficult is coating good quality miniature film, without flaws. Paradoxically, plates could well remain available if film disappeared -- and indeed, coating your own plates isn't that difficult.

But anyone who imagines someone coating good-quality (or even usable) 35mm film in his kitchen, or his garden shed, or on any similar small scale, clearly knows nothing at all about film coating.

My own view is that film has a lot more than 15 years left, but (a) it's just as wild a guess as yours and (b) I've been wrong before. Then again, I've also been right before, generally more often than I've been wildly wrong.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Pherdinand]

Anxious about the what of what?? 🙂

 

[jsrockit]

You're right, it's not a very good comparison. Making film is VASTLY more difficult than making Summicrons.

That's probably true, though with all the supposed magic in Leica lenses, it can't be that easy or every other manufactuer would make its lenses as good. 😉 Also, there is no need to make lenses in your basement since there are tons of them around that will work for many, many years to come. However, film has an expiration date. I guess I just think (admittedly, without much research) that some company will continue to make film for a decent amount of time. It might not be super profitable, but it might be some company's pet project that could be funded by other aspects of photography and imaging.

 

[perudo]

If film production would stop, I could possibly stop taking pictures. Because, to me, honestly, it is not about film or digital, but about making negatives that I can print in my darkroom.....


anyway.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLD6JMf560Y&feature=related

 

[Roger Hicks]

That's probably true, though with all the supposed magic in Leica lenses, it can't be that easy or every other manufactuer would make its lenses as good. 😉 Also, there is no need to make lenses in your basement since there are tons of them around that will work for many, many years to come. However, film has an expiration date. I guess I just think (admittedly, without much research) that some company will continue to make film for a decent amount of time. It might not be super profitable, but it might be some company's pet project that could be funded by other aspects of photography and imaging.

It's definitely true, and in fact, other manufacturers can make lenses just as good. The drawback is that making lenses that way costs Leica money: look at the prices of German-made Zeiss lenses. That's why Alpa no longer offers the 38/4.5: a batch of 50 in Alpa mount was serious money even in Alpa terms.

As for film manufacture, see my post above. Like you, I think film will be around for a good deal longer than Nick does. We are, however, all guessing.

Cheers,

R.

 

[randomm]

You're right, it's not a very good comparison. Making film is VASTLY more difficult than making Summicrons.

Cheers,

R.

Blimey, I have to ask my other local forum's regular to start making them as well, as film he already has done...

I'll try to find links and photos, as this seems to be such a hot topic!

 

[jsrockit]

Roger, I concede... you know more about the Photography industry than me.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Blimey, I have to ask my other local forum's regular to start making them as well, as film he already has done...

I'll try to find links and photos, as this seems to be such a hot topic!

35mm? Or indeed, in any format, of usable quality for enlargement? I'll be impressed...

EDIT: And what did he use for a substrate?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Steinberg2010]

The biggest single limiting factor is almost certainly substrate, because everything else can be made on quite a small scale or bought in from outside supppliers (e.g. gelatine), and no, a small company is unlikely to be able make substrate as well as the other ingredients -- the more so as slide substrate is clear, and B+W substrate is grey-dyed to reduce halation. And (except for Delta 3200) 35mm and 120 substrates are different thicknesses.

Sorry just to clarify - is the substrate the plastic backing material? And if so, why is that such a hard material to source, I'd always assumed it was a type of polyester?

~S

 

[Roger Hicks]

Sorry just to clarify - is the substrate the plastic backing material? And if so, why is that such a hard material to source, I'd always assumed it was a type of polyester?

~S

Yes, and sort of -- polyesters are used for most films except 35mm, where cellulose triacetate is more popular because of light piping in PET/PEN.

The sizes, thicknesses and quality of either triacetate or PEN/PET for film base are apparently rather specific to the photo industry, and this stuff needs to be made in very large quantities. That, in my understanding, is the problem.

It's a bit like paper: there are astonishingly few manufacturers of photographic paper bases in the word, though paper is hardly scarce.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sparrow]

Triacetate, CTA and TAC, are used extensively and in huge quantity in the production of textile fibres, it's hard to imagine the basic stock becoming scarce

 

[perudo]

diy! amazing!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dark_orange/sets/72157603226919391/

 

[perudo]

sorry, I don't want to spam this thread, but here is another very interesting link 😉

http://blog.teknari.com/2011/10/silver-gelatin-workshop-how-to-make.html

 

[jan normandale]

Since there are discussions regarding the actual manufacture of film I've put the links to two video clips on youtube below. They are narrated in German with English subtitles. The clips are very good because they illustrate the complexity of film production back in the 50's and 60's. Current technology is further advanced so one can imagine the issues of making film to todays standards from scratch. I think it would be near impossible because of the supply issues let alone production equipment.

IMO Roger hit the nail on the head "Golden Days of Film" are now and going fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ6w1esVcoY&list=PL6B602E240CE431E1&index=96

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-d0W6hMxwo&list=PL6B602E240CE431E1&index=97

 

[wwwphil]

Maybe its just my impression of the film market but things seem better now than four years ago. Ilford continue to produce a wide range of products, Efke, Rollei and a small band of smaller producers are keeping us supplied with new and different films. As I said maybe its just my impression. Phil.