Auction site feedback - do you wait?

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Post deleted by author request.

 

[RicardoD]

I've stuggled with this as well. I'm mostly a seller, so I usually give feedback after I get payment, but sometimes I have withheld feedback till a few weeks after delivery as I want to make sure I won't get trashed by the buyer for some false claims. Then I still have the ability to counter-slam them about their purchase. Then it occured to me that this is silly and is just inviting bad "Ebay Karma". But I understand the thinking as to why other sellers would do this.

Perhaps all that is required is an email stating that you are happy with your purchase, have left positive buyer feedback, and request that they do the same.

 

[T_om]

When I sell on eBay, I NEVER leave feedback until my customer leaves feedback.

Why? Because the deal is not complete until the BUYER says it is complete.

Just because you pay does not mean the transaction is over. As you said yourself, your payment is only half. What happens if the seller ships your item in good faith, leaves you positive feedback, yet you never receive it? What protection does the seller have against YOU leaving bad feedback when THEY completed THEIR "half of the bargain" in good faith?

Like the old saying goes, it ain't over until the fat lady sings. The complete transaction ain't over until the buyer has his kit and lets the world know he/she is happy. Until then, the transaction is still in progress and nothing is resolved.

Tom

 

[Nick R.]

Like Tom says. You leave feedback when the deal is completed and you're satisfied. For the seller, the deal is done when the buyer leaves +feedback.

 

[bmattock]

I mostly buy on eBoy. I leave feedback when I have paid for and received the item. That is generally when I get feedback from the seller. Some sellers don't leave feedback for a month or so - I presume to make sure I am not going to file a beef on them. I don't really care, I've been on eBoy since 1996 and have over 500 positive feedbacks - 100%. Sooner or later, someone will neg me. That's just life. But like a 4.0 GPA, it will be hard to bring me down now, the average is too high spread out over too many feedbacks.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[JoeFriday]

I used to think it was the seller's responsibility to leave feedback as soon as I paid.. but now I have the same opinion that Nick and Tom said.. the easiest thing to do is email the buyer or seller with a polite "thanks for your payment, the item is on it's way.. I'll give you positive feedback as soon as you let me know you're happy with it".. or "I received the item and it's great.. feedback will be left very soon"

in many cases, the sellers take weeks to leave feedback.. but generally they will do so shortly after I give them a positive rating

 

[davidbivins]

Feedback is relatively useless at this point. I understand sellers wanting to wait until the transaction is complete, but most sellers withhold feedback so that it can be used as a hammer if the buyer has negative feedback. I use eBay often as do many friends, and anecdotally, regardless of how much a buyer tries to resolve issues with the seller, the seller will trash the buyer if the buyer leaves negative feedback.
When I'm in such a situation, I don't leave feedback. It's not worth getting my feedback trashed with b.s. from a flakey seller.
When I receive payment as a seller, I leave positive feedback. I expect nothing more from the buyer. I've never received negative feedback after leaving positive feedback, but then I consider myself a very conscientious seller and have never had an unresolveable issue with a buyer.

 

[pbjbike]

Especially with less than Mint condition items, I'm always a bit concerned about feedback/satisfaction of the buyer. Kevincameras won a real beat up Nikon 25mm lens that I listed and I freaked because he has some negative feedback and uses another ID for bidding. Filed a complaint with eboy since my auctions state no bids from anyone with negative feedback...Figured out it was Kevin and everything was fine, (but he never left feedback). Always wait for the buyer to post first, IMO.

 

[Rich Silfver]

I personally consider a seller that hold on to his feedback until the buyer have left feedback to be dodgy.

If you as a seller have received payment the obligations from the buyer has been fulfilled and the seller should leave feedback.

To 'wait' until the buyer leaves feedback is real dodgy to me and serves no other purpose but being able to retaliate against the buyer commening on that you sent a shitty product.

 

[bmattock]

Feedback is relatively useless at this point.

I agree with you entirely. When I started on eBoy (1996), it was understood that a 'neutral' rating meant things had gone as they should. 'Positive' was meant to mean something wonderful had happened - a lovely young redhead sprang out of the box your camera came in and gave you a smooch on the beezer and then ran towards your bedroom, trailing bits of loungerie. Something like that.

However, people quickly abandoned 'neutral'. Things were either posh or they were trash.

Now 'positive' simply means the transaction completed. I even give positive response for kit that I receive that is so less than described it used to make me furious how anyone could mistake "mint" for "run over by lorry."

But it doesn't matter. Nothing matters. If you bid and buy on eBoy, you are part of the crap-shoot, and you get what you get. I accept that and continue to play. Those who can't should move on, this game will eat them alive.

I understand sellers wanting to wait until the transaction is complete, but most sellers withhold feedback so that it can be used as a hammer if the buyer has negative feedback.

Yep. Even if the guy sent me a dead rat in a box instead of a camera, he gets a positive if the box arrived. The worst I would do is just not give feedback.

I use eBay often as do many friends, and anecdotally, regardless of how much a buyer tries to resolve issues with the seller, the seller will trash the buyer if the buyer leaves negative feedback.

Yep.

When I'm in such a situation, I don't leave feedback. It's not worth getting my feedback trashed with b.s. from a flakey seller.

I have left like two negs ever. Both for things I tried to sell, the buyer just never paid and never responded to emails. However, in the future, I probably would not bother.

When I receive payment as a seller, I leave positive feedback. I expect nothing more from the buyer. I've never received negative feedback after leaving positive feedback, but then I consider myself a very conscientious seller and have never had an unresolveable issue with a buyer.

When I sell (rarely), I wait until I get positive feedback from the buyer. I can use www.toolhaus.org and see how many nasty little buyers like to play games - the most fun game is called "Let's get a partial refund and use feedback as a weapon against the seller." They do it intentionally as a negotiation tool. What a world we live in.

I don't like that game. So no feedback until I get mine first.

Anyway, www.toolhaus.org is the place to go. Try it sometime - it shows not just the negs a person has received (all in one place, easier to read than eBoy) but also all the negs they've left, ever. You would be amazed.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[T_om]

I personally consider a seller that hold on to his feedback until the buyer have left feedback to be dodgy.

If you as a seller have received payment the obligations from the buyer has been fulfilled and the seller should leave feedback.

To 'wait' until the buyer leaves feedback is real dodgy to me and serves no other purpose but being able to retaliate against the buyer commening on that you sent a shitty product.

What happens if you receive nothing and the seller has proof he shipped? Are you happy then?

If you received nothing (and did not request insurance) you are happily going to leave positive feedback, right? Yeah that's what I thought.

According to eBay policy, the seller has met his responsibilities when he ships. It is up to the BUYER to get insurance if the BUYER wants it. Otherwise, the seller has done his part when he ships and has proof he shipped.

Anyone telling me they would not hold the seller responsible for non-delivery is pegging my BS meter. I would tell them sorry, I just don't believe you.

Tom, a "Dodgy" seller.

 

[bmattock]

I personally consider a seller that hold on to his feedback until the buyer have left feedback to be dodgy.

Simple self-preservation. And most of them do it now, based on how things work for me as a buyer. I can't recall the last time I got a feedback from a seller who had not yet gotten his from me.

If you as a seller have received payment the obligations from the buyer has been fulfilled and the seller should leave feedback.

Too many buyers consider the arrival of the goods as phase one of the negotiations.

Imagine this:

1) You see a camera you want. You can't afford what you know it will go for.
2) You make a very high bid anyway.
3) You win.
4) You pay.
5) You get the camera.

Think the game is over? Think again.

6) You find fault, criticize, and complain. You 'hint' that you'll not leave a neg-bomb if the seller will offer a reduction in price. He gets the hint, especially if he has a very high feedback rating. He offers a refund, minus shipping. Nope, nothing doing. You want a partial refund, you will NOT return the camera.

7) You get 50% of your original winning bid back. If you had bid that price in the first place, you'd have lost the auction. Clever, Huh?

And that is how THAT game is played. And some RFF'ers do it (sorry guys, but I know who you are and so do you) and consider it just part of how things work. Unethical as can be, immoral and just plain wrong - but I guess legal and in their minds 'the way to do it'. They're 'winners' and you are a 'loser' for leaving your feedback too early.

To 'wait' until the buyer leaves feedback is real dodgy to me and serves no other purpose but being able to retaliate against the buyer commening on that you sent a shitty product.

Most of the cameras that I receive are well short of 'as described'. MOST of them. And I am not that picky. But there is very little way to prove that they knew it, and what am I going to do anyway? In my case, most of what I buy costs more for shipping than the camera cost. Even if I get a refund minus shipping, I'm still down the shipping cost. So I consider any item I bid on as at least 50% lower in quality than it appears to be. That mostly works.

My outlook is grim, but I keep playing.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Rich Silfver]

What happens if you receive nothing and the seller has proof he shipped? Are you happy then?

No and I must say that I really fail to see your point. If the seller has proof (as you say) that he shipped it then my issue is with the postal service or whatever deal I can make with the seller (who apparently has proof he shipped it but it never got to me).

If you received nothing (and did not request insurance) you are happily going to leave positive feedback, right? Yeah that's what I thought.

Are we confused here?
If I, as a buyer, is not happy then I of course leave negative feedback if the fault is on the seller.
If I, as a buyer, is not happy because I didn't RECEIVE an item it goes back to if I asked for proof of shipment, tracking number, insurance or not.
As a SELLER - if i PAID you you better leave me positive feedback or you ARE dodgy and are just holding out to see if I will either a) spot/care that what you sent me was crap or b) bitch about a shipping issue. From your perspective I paid you and you should be happy to tell the world I did what was requested of me.

According to eBay policy, the seller has met his responsibilities when he ships. It is up to the BUYER to get insurance if the BUYER wants it. Otherwise, the seller has done his part when he ships and has proof he shipped.

Sounds good to me. And the buyer's responsibility is to pay.
If the item when received is crap. The buyer should be able to leave negative comments on that.

Anyone telling me they would not hold the seller responsible for non-delivery is pegging my BS meter. I would tell them sorry, I just don't believe you.

That, is a personal decision.

Tom, a "Dodgy" seller.

In this context, yes I would agree.

 

[KoNickon]

I have to agree with Rich. From a seller's perspective, the buyer has lived up to his end of the bargain when payment has been made in satisfactory fashion. Any subsequent unpleasantness (like a dispute about the condition of the item) is a second chapter, for which amended feedback can be left on the buyer if need be.

As a buyer, I am not going to leave feedback one way or the other until the transaction has been completed to my satisfaction. That's just common courtesy. If I get an item that's not as advertised, I'll let the seller know and maybe ask to return it for a refund. When I've gotten the refund (or it's been worked out to my satisfaction otherwise), then I will leave positive feedback (e.g. "Item was defective but money cheerfully refunded").

I got negative feedback from one seller after he failed for several weeks to send me the lens I'd bid on and won. I think frankly he sold it to someone else and had to scrounge a replacement, which came through with a dented filter ring, which I wasn't thrilled about (to say the least) but he also included another lens gratis, which was not expected and which I greatly appreciated. Nonetheless, I found out he left negative feedback calling me a "difficult seller"!

So, to the sellers who've posted and who withhold feedback until the buyer posts positive feedback, I ask you this: Why would you leave negative feedback for a seller who has a legitimate complaint? As a buyer I resent the idea that positive feedback from you is being held hostage for my first providing you positive feedback.

Seems to me ultimately your reason for leaving negative feedback is nothing more than that you believe the buyer should have raised the matter causing dissatisfaction with you first. It's bad manners, for sure, for a buyer to fire off a negative salvo without trying to resolve a dispute first, but on the other hand, difficult customers are a part of business. And, keep in mind that as a seller, you often get only one chance to make a good impression. As I said above, if the buyer complains but you believe it's without merit, then you can leave amended feedback.

 

[KoNickon]

To follow up -- first, in my little anecdote above, I obviously meant to say the feedback I got was that I was a difficult BUYER.

I may be a Pollyanna, and I've never played the kind of game Bill describes. I agree; that's dirty pool. But as I said already, I see no reason why the seller can't turn around and leave negative feedback to the tune of "Buyer claimed a defect in the item and tried to extort a lower price from me." I don't see why, in a listing, a seller can't indicate that the only remedy for a defective or unsatisfactory item is a refund of the purchase price (less shipping) after return of the item in the same condition as when shipped. Wouldn't that solve the scam Bill describes?

 

[Buze]

I no longer leave feedback. the system is broken as it is. Feedback should be given if the transaction was /very/ good, or bad. Just the plain normal transaction is just adding noise to the signal. While on the other hand you can't leave bad feedback because of retaliatory sellers. Considering the number of dodgy people who sells stuff with optimistic descriptions, it means the feedback system is not functional. These guys use their feedback as a loaded gun in case you make a fuss.
You /never/ see people with less than 95% of good feedback anyway, so whats the point of having it start at zero ?

 

[derevaun]

As a seller I don't leave feedback until I hear that the buyer has received the item and is satisfied with the transaction. If the buyer makes unreasonable demands, potential future sellers deserve to know about it. Simply sending payment doesn't mean they're a trustworthy trading partner--the Ebay forums are full of scam reports to the contrary.

That doesn't mean I withhold feedback until receiving positive feedback (though sometimes that's the only confirmation). I just wait until the transaction is resolved on both ends, then exchange feedback.

In fact, getting positive feedback before receiving the item might well raise flags that something's wrong and the seller is being pushy about getting feedback over with before you can thoroughly inspect the item. OK, maybe that's a bit of a stretch. Still plausible, no?

 

[bmattock]

To follow up -- first, in my little anecdote above, I obviously meant to say the feedback I got was that I was a difficult BUYER.

I may be a Pollyanna, and I've never played the kind of game Bill describes. I agree; that's dirty pool. But as I said already, I see no reason why the seller can't turn around and leave negative feedback to the tune of "Buyer claimed a defect in the item and tried to extort a lower price from me." I don't see why, in a listing, a seller can't indicate that the only remedy for a defective or unsatisfactory item is a refund of the purchase price (less shipping) after return of the item in the same condition as when shipped. Wouldn't that solve the scam Bill describes?

I realize that it is a fine line. Say I buy something and I pay 10 dollars and upon inspection, I honestly and firmly believe it only to be worth 5 dollars. In good faith, I contact the seller and explain why I feel this way, and offer them the choice - either I return the item for a full refund, or we renegotiate the deal. Perhaps the seller is willing to take a little less - he sees the points the buyer is making, and he feels it is not worth the hassle, or even if he gets it back, he has to relist and resell it, pay seller's fees a second time, and perhaps find the same result from yet another buyer.

Fair enough.

But I personally know of a buyer who uses this as a method of purchase. He never intended to pay what he paid - and he will get a refund on every single purchase. Nothing is ever up to his lofty standards. The fact is, the guy is a crook (in my humble opinion).

What's the difference? I guess it only exists in the buyer's mind, their mens rea if they have one.

Why would the seller, knowing that this is standard operating procedure for many buyers, leave positive feedback as soon as they get the money? Now, if they get extorted er, negotiated, they have no ability to leave a negative feedback in return.

As to why the seller can't indicated in their listing the conditions of sale - I have only one experience to give - as a seller, when a buyer did exactly what I have described to me. I said in my listing - no warrantee, as-is, no refunds, and so on. But I did make a mistake - and I admit it. I said that other than this and that defect (I listed the defects I knew about), the item was just about perfect. Huge mistake. The buyer tried to extort me - didn't want a return-and-refund, he wanted a lower purchase price. Threatened me with a neg and a complaint to Paypal and his credit card company. I told him to go ahead and do it. I lost. I had the money forcefully taken from me by Paypal, my account was locked for over three months (not 14 days as they say) and I got back the item damaged - it had clearly been dropped hard before packing to send back to me.

Now, I doubt I will sell used items again. I got burned badly, and it hurt. I don't mistrust - I abstain from selling. Too many people are crooks.

Sorry, that's the way I see it. I play the game as a buyer now because I can afford to lose a buck here or there. As a seller, I risk too much trying to sell high-dollar items.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

As a seller I don't leave feedback until I hear that the buyer has received the item and is satisfied with the transaction. If the buyer makes unreasonable demands, potential future sellers deserve to know about it. Simply sending payment doesn't mean they're a trustworthy trading partner--the Ebay forums are full of scam reports to the contrary.

That doesn't mean I withhold feedback until receiving positive feedback (though sometimes that's the only confirmation). I just wait until the transaction is resolved on both ends, then exchange feedback.

In fact, getting positive feedback before receiving the item might well raise flags that something's wrong and the seller is being pushy about getting feedback over with before you can thoroughly inspect the item. OK, maybe that's a bit of a stretch. Still plausible, no?

In the case I described wherein I got good rogering, the buyer had sent me a very upbeat and enthusiastic email saying he had received the item, thanked me for the very good packing, and was off to put it to good use. His response can only be described as ebulliant. It was a full two weeks later that he came back and demanded a partial refund, claiming everything from a found 'cat hair' on the item (which he apparently could not blow off) to just general dissatisfaction that the item did not work as he imagined it should.

I am cynical. But I think everyone else is too. I never get feedback from sellers until I have left mine as a buyer. I'm used to it, and that's what I do on the rare occasion I sell something.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

So, to the sellers who've posted and who withhold feedback until the buyer posts positive feedback, I ask you this: Why would you leave negative feedback for a [NOTE: EDIT] buyer who has a legitimate complaint? As a buyer I resent the idea that positive feedback from you is being held hostage for my first providing you positive feedback.

I can well appreciate that you would resent it, but I have found that this is the way it is. And I have nothing against a buyer who has a legitimate complaint. The problem comes in determining what is legitimate. That's so subjective, it is hard to even seperate the honest from the dishonest. Two people can be miles apart in what they honestly think of an item's condition - add in some dishonesty and it can be impossible to agree.

Seems to me ultimately your reason for leaving negative feedback is nothing more than that you believe the buyer should have raised the matter causing dissatisfaction with you first. It's bad manners, for sure, for a buyer to fire off a negative salvo without trying to resolve a dispute first, but on the other hand, difficult customers are a part of business. And, keep in mind that as a seller, you often get only one chance to make a good impression. As I said above, if the buyer complains but you believe it's without merit, then you can leave amended feedback.

In a non eBoy world, one would shrug off the dissatisfied customer complaint and move on (assuming it was a) resolved or b) not legitimate). However, in the eBoy universe, you trail your negatives around with you for the life of your account. Eventually, they result in your sale prices dropping - because people do not trust you enough to make that big high bid. That's good if the seller is a crook, but bad if they just ran into a bunch of VERY PICKY buyers who are never satisfied. They can never 'outgrow' the negative feedbacks, they are always there. eBoy won't remove them in 99.99% of the cases. They never 'expire'. You have to abandon your account and start another one - against eBoy rules, but you'll probably get away with it - but now you start again with zero feedback.

In the eBoy universe, your feedback is who you are if you are a seller. It can be counted up like dollars and cents in a very real way. In accounting class, they taught us that there is something called 'goodwill' that you can put in your books - the goodwill that you earn over time in your industry. In the eBoy universe, your goodwill is very real and very obvious - feedback. And a crook will prey on that - they have your cojones in a vice until they give that positive or negative. And some people use that like a weapon.

Put it another way. If you are accused of robbing a bank and found innocent in court, you may live it down. If you are accused of robbing ten banks and you are found innocent every single time, who will believe you when you go to apply for a job? Especially if your arrest record floats above your head like a neon sign you can never turn off. It won't matter how innocent you are - people will not believe you. With feedback, you don't even get to prove your innocence - the very accusation is the same as a conviction and follows you around.

So that, in my opinion, is why sellers protect themselves the way they do.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks