Been there, done that

The biggest kick I get these days is when I'm out using a 'vintage camera' and some youngster (19 to 39) comes up and genuinely is interested in the camera. Sometimes they say, 'why do you use it?' and I just say 'I like it.' Sometimes a follow up, 'why do you use film?' I just say, 'I like it.' This could be the start of something great, don't do, own or think anything unless you can say, 'I just like it.'
 
Richard Jenkinson said:
So what's your contribution to the debate?
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i disagree that roger's recommendation to buy an MP is useless. there are people who will be able to buy one at some point and maybe his recommendation gives them the drive to work a little harder for it.

if everyone kept to themself and didn't share their opinions on these very expensive toys/tools, we'd be left with what we had 20 years ago: articles in magazines that are supported by the companies they are reviewing.

bob
 
Roger,

When I was just 21 I knew everything there was to know about photography, more than that even. It had much to do with me being 21, and me being me, I suspect.

Now I'm even older than you and beside me on my shelves is a book I treasure, and I suspect I'd have treasured if I were 21 again. Its called "The Black and White Handbook".

I loaned this to a young fellow a few years back, and he finally returned it to me last week. He responded to the book by keeping it for a year or so and buying a film camera.

You are doing all right Roger....keep at it.
 
HCB was from a rich family so he could afford to buy Leica and shoot with it. So did Robert Capa.
Toni Vicaro could not afford Leica and he was shooting pictures with Argus C3 (or whatever that brick is called), but he was still shooting and created possibly the best war pictures ever...
Perhaps your young friend should think about this, rather than dreaming of buying a top notch equipment first and then dedicating life to photography... :)

P.S.
That said, I sometimes read the discussions on this site and can't help but wondering: who are these people?!
I am pretty highly paid engineer at Ford Motor Co, my wife is very highly paid accountant, our family income is a lot higher than average, yet I cannot even think of the prices and equipment you guys are operating here in daily conversations... I am not saying this to judge anybody, good for you, I am just expressing an observation.
 
Back to the original question: I have a friend who is gone crazy on Leicas too ;) He said this once, and I remembered: "there is no point buying MP, because eventually you will want M6 anyway". Not having either I cannot agree or disagree.
I wonder what you think about it.
 
Brian Sweeney said:
I am surprised by how many of the younger generation (under 30) value and use the cameras that I grew up with and value so.
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It's because even young people value quality over mass produced, throw away plastic crap. I'm Rogers age and I can't see the allure of digital, I've tried and it's just boring. I can see it 100% from a business sense or from someone who just wants an image of their kid's birthday party. But for a hobby it's pretty boring. Can you name the alphabet soup of names of all the current Canon digital cameras for example?

As an aside my youngest daughter was a naval photographer for 6 years. On an aircraft carrier she took fantastic photos that were not only printed in the Navy in house publications but made the international news organizations. About 4 years into her Navy career they switched to digital, did away with the darkroom and she totally lost interest. She's now getting her Doctorate in Archeology and she called me the other day because she needs a camera for a dig in Barbados. I said I don't own a digital camera and she "I know- I want a film camera."

I'm fortunate to work on a daily basis with a lot of young people (mostly engineers) and as far as core values are concerned are no different then me or my long deceased father.
 
When asked I always say buy a good cheep camera, film if you want 0 and 1s if you want, Spend more money on books by great photographers. Lets be honest here you can get a good used slr for less than a lot of people spend on a night out. If your really skint go for a cheep 1970s rf use film from pound shops and the like. Go to the lowest priced photo lab till you start to know what you like. One of my favorite cameras cost me 99p. MP's and the like are great if you want one and have the money. But if you want to learn reading books is the way to go with loads of practice ie at least one film a wk. Lastly photograph things your interested in if its concrete or if its dogs.
But Roger is a man who knows what he is talking about and I have told a couple of starters to look at his sight amongst others. And if the rangefinder is the thing that works for you then I guess an MP is a good aim. Though Id be more tempted by a Mamiya7 or another medium format rf.
 
quote=charjohncarter, "....don't do, own or think anything unless you can say, 'I just like it."

Amen. That's one to take to the bank !

(If you'll excuse the monetary implications.)
 
back alley said:
i believe that age is irrelevant.
advice is given and received and either acted upon or not but after i have given it then my part and the responsibility contained within is over.
you choose your future, not me.

joe
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Joe says it well, though I would put 'often' before irrelevant to qualify it slightly. Roger, you are a honest and polite straight-shooter. No one can ask more from a man on the web. Just stick with that form and keep writing (especially about darkroom stuff) and shooting film.
Respectfully, Thomas
 
Telling a typical 19 year old to buy an MP may be good advice, but it's probably not practical advice. Tell them to buy a Bessa, or help them find an ugly but functional M2. These are things that might actually happen.
I recently turned my nephew on to Led Zeppelin. If he asks about a guitar, I'm not going to tell him to buy a $3,000 Les Paul, but I will go to the music store and help him find a really good $400 Epiphone.
 
MIkhail said:
P.S.
That said, I sometimes read the discussions on this site and can't help but wondering: who are these people?!
I am pretty highly paid engineer at Ford Motor Co, my wife is very highly paid accountant, our family income is a lot higher than average, yet I cannot even think of the prices and equipment you guys are operating here in daily conversations... I am not saying this to judge anybody, good for you, I am just expressing an observation.
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Hey I got stock in your company so go to work-:) That said (and I'm originally from Toledo and am also an "over paid" engineer) I've afforded Leica over the decades by buying used, trading, skimping, buying low, selling high, etc., etc. It's just a matter of buying what you want. Once you have disposable income (i.e. that amount over and above which you need to live) you start working for toys. I was in my 30's before I actually weaseled my way into a very battered and used M4 (which I had until just recently, so 30 years of service out of that very used camera). Now, once my kids got through college - which they probably paid 90% out of their own pocket I can afford to really splurge and buy almost whatever I want camera wise.

I think of the earlier post were the poor guy was complaining about not making a livable wage but he still owned a camera, had a computer and internet service and probably a lot more. I can guess he never spent a night in a Baptist mission eating stale donated bread for supper. I've been poor, and I mean poor but quite honestly in the '50's you never knew it because the government did'nt tell me over and over again how poor I was. We didn't have central heat until I was about 12, running water until 6 or 7 and I worked my way thru college after the second child so we never could afford a TV until 1984 when my youngest was about 6. Just didn't considered a TV vital for a family - let alone cable or internet.

I'm getting into a rant and need to stop -:)
 
I don't get it. What has age got to do w/ it? I know some 20 year olds that are conservative little old men, and some really radical 78 year old youngsters.
 
Beemermark said:
Hey I got stock in your company so go to work-:) That said (and I'm originally from Toledo and am also an "over paid" engineer) I've afforded Leica over the decades by buying used, trading, skimping, buying low, selling high, etc., etc. It's just a matter of buying what you want. Once you have disposable income (i.e. that amount over and above which you need to live) you start working for toys. I was in my 30's before I actually weaseled my way into a very battered and used M4 (which I had until just recently, so 30 years of service out of that very used camera). Now, once my kids got through college - which they probably paid 90% out of their own pocket I can afford to really splurge and buy almost whatever I want camera wise.

I think of the earlier post were the poor guy was complaining about not making a livable wage but he still owned a camera, had a computer and internet service and probably a lot more. I can guess he never spent a night in a Baptist mission eating stale donated bread for supper. I've been poor, and I mean poor but quite honestly in the '50's you never knew it because the government did'nt tell me over and over again how poor I was. We didn't have central heat until I was about 12, running water until 6 or 7 and I worked my way thru college after the second child so we never could afford a TV until 1984 when my youngest was about 6. Just didn't considered a TV vital for a family - let alone cable or internet.

I'm getting into a rant and need to stop -:)
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Things aren't always as simple as they appear. I have the stuff I have because most of it was given me by people who liked my work enough to help me. I have lived in my car, have gone hungry so many times that my body is in terrible shape at age 33. My wrists are so thin that they're less than 2 inches thick. Right now, things aren't too bad. I am getting by because I am receiving student aid while I work on my masters degree. Without that, I would be eating at the Rescue Mission, and my son would be there next to me. Most of my classmates live with their parents because no one will hire them. My family does not want me. Unlike my female colleagues, I cannot marry someone who will support me as a housewife (or househusband! LOL).
 
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Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Things aren't always as simple as they appear. .
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I'm trying to think how to reply and am have big difficulties doing so. I know from personnel experience that things are never as simple as they appear. People go from extreme poverty to extreme riches based on a combination of brains, skills, pure luck and being in the right place at the right time. My earlier answer just meant to state I know where your coming from. I can remember eating dog food because it was free and I was so hungry. Luck, God, good fortune and all that turned it all around until by age 55 I was upper income middle class looking towards early retirement. Today at 58 all takes it one missed refund check and it all collapses. Easy come, easy go. Worrying about it why just add wrinkles. I''ll say it again, your rich enough to have a camera (whether a Instamatic or Leica) an internet connection and a computer. You've made a decision to pursue a photography career, enjoy what you have and forget what you don't have.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Things aren't always as simple as they appear. I have the stuff I have because most of it was given me by people who liked my work enough to help me. I have lived in my car, have gone hungry so many times that my body is in terrible shape at age 33. My wrists are so thin that they're less than 2 inches thick. Right now, things aren't too bad. I am getting by because I am receiving student aid while I work on my masters degree. Without that, I would be eating at the Rescue Mission, and my son would be there next to me. Most of my classmates live with their parents because no one will hire them. My family does not want me. Unlike my female colleagues, I cannot marry someone who will support me as a housewife (or househusband! LOL).
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Chris,

I don't know the choices you've made or your circumstances (except bits I've picked up from reading your posts), but it seems that you are pursuing a creative path. "Starving artist" is a well worn term for a reason. If you're going hungry as a student, perhaps a better paying use of your time is in order.
I didn't pursue my dreams. Instead, I joined the service then got jobs that fed me and my family. I'm not always happy with those choices...but I made them and I live with them.


edited to add:
And thus I demonstrate why I usually have more sense than to give advice. It is never taken as intended and seldom affects the recipient in any positive way at all.
 
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dazedgonebye said:
Chris,

I don't know the choices you've made or your circumstances (except bits I've picked up from reading your posts), but it seems that you are pursuing a creative path. "Starving artist" is a well worn term for a reason. If you're going hungry as a student, perhaps a better paying use of your time is in order.
I didn't pursue my dreams. Instead, I joined the service then got jobs that fed me and my family. I'm not always happy with those choices...but I made them and I live with them.


edited to add:
And thus I demonstrate why I usually have more sense than to give advice. It is never taken as intended and seldom affects the recipient in any positive way at all.
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I'm not starving now. Struggling a little, but not going hungry. I'm hoping I can find gainful employment with more education, but the way the world is now, who knows. I know so many unemployed people who have tons of education, it is ridiculous!

I'm too old to join the military now, but when I was younger they wouldn't have taken me. I have a history of Epilepsy and until recently I wasn't strong enough to lift more than 25lb or so. I was in bad health when I was young, far worse than now.
 
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Well, I'm 19 and if someone was to tell me to buy an MP, I would simply explain that I'd rather spend that money on glass. I don't think that an age gap has to mean that we can't communicate in a straightforward fashion. Although I can hadly see myself offering that advice (buy an MP) i can see why someone else would, and i respect that and under the right circumstances, I agree with it.

When offering advice without knowing everything about someone, we tend to give generalized answers, i know that what i try and what many try to do is this: answer the question posed, offer a couple of different perspectives on that advice and then suggest another idea altogether: "or you could not get the MP and get an R3M and an R4M with a 25mm, a 35mm biogon and a 90 elmarit..." or whatever.

Roger, a we all know is very knowledgeable in the field of many things rangefinder and i can say that his advice is always welcome. I take his advice as the advice of someone with experience, but also as someone who has had the chance to have his hands full with fancy gear. I would like to flatter myself with the idea that I may provide a different point of view that is equally valid in the effort to give members the largest variety of advice possible from as diverse a group of people as possible.
 
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